From Combat to Counsel: Being a Business Enabler with Eugene Matos De Lara

Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions that. Shaped their paths, whether. You're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world? This podcast is for you. Today, have the opportunity to interview Eugene Mattis. He has an incredible experience and so many different things that he's done throughout his career all the way from diplomacy to the military. Thank you so much for taking the time to join the podcast today, Eugene. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me here. I really do appreciate it. I think it's. Gonna be fun, amazing and true. To start off, I'd love if you could introduce yourself, chair listeners and and share a little bit about your background as well. I'm from Dominican Republic originally and and I studied law and in a bunch of places. I studied law in Germany, I studied law in Quebec, civil law and common law and bought as well went to the military, was a diplomat for awhile, was even in high school teacher at one point. You know, I mean, I will introduce myself as someone that's very curious, Very, very, very, very curious and I'm happy to jump into things. I will say that I enjoy life a lot after having served in military. Life is so short, you have to have fun. Skydiver instructor. I'm a pilot. You'd like to do intense stuff. Keeps keeps me away from the work and life. Interesting. We're only here for such a short period of time and that's that's all I have to say. That's amazing. That's awesome. I love that. And I finally ask maybe jumping into a little bit of your of your study experience and then we can talk a little bit about your work and all of that. But I know you hold both a civil law degree then from Quebec and then some German background as well and also a common law degree. And I also come from the civil law system myself. Yeah, that's right. I started my career in Brazil. That's where I'm from and where my first degree is from. Keep you you put your Brazilian. Yep, Yep. Yeah, actually. Speaker, dish. Sing sing. With the band What the man? But what I'm curious to know, you know, we talk often about this differences in all of that and comparing the system. But I I'm wondering if for you it was a huge difference in the sense of, you know, switching between a code based mindset should expresidente base and if the thinking of it ever dominated the other. Or like in your current practice, you use more homolog. What? What does that look like today? I think that I find being a common law lawyer a lot harder than being a civilist. I'm going to say civilist, a civil tradition, civilist tradition to the point that as a civil law lawyer, you can really lean back on the legislature and the rules that have been legislated and you can lean back on the Civil Code. I'm sure in Brazil you have a silicone as well or similar tradition. You have the book, the book, and what I like about that book is that it says everything you need to know and it's so well written. A lot of what I what I hate, what I have that that discussion with the common lawyers is that they say, oh, you know, regulations or rags, you know, you hear about the regulations or eggs and Ontario then tear regulations. You know, they're you know, they're very sporadic, they're poorly written. They're they're just very timely written, but the regulations don't full well through time if I if I make sense. But when you look at a Civil Code, you're looking at a piece of art really. If you look up for example, and I'm sure then in Brazil, you know you would have in Germany, the same way you'd have a code that's written then you know bites in the pollinators traditions, it says the code is written in a way that you are from birth to death. All the chapters are so well written. You have how you become a person. What is a person? What are the rights of the person to How do you name your child? It's actually in the Quebec code. It actually is a rule on how to name your child. You should not, you know, you know you cannot, you know, name your child in the famous world and famous with the famous way. There's actually a case law that's actually quite interesting because if the person that tried to call their child the spatula and and and and it goes against the code because you could not name your child this certain way. And no, all that to say is that as a lawyer, it's a lot easier. It makes the life a lot easier. Civil, a lawyer to be a civilist I find, but it's a lost student. It's a different story as a law student, I know your pockets about lost. You know, you're talking about lost students and all that. And if, if, if any of common law students are going to go study a civilist tradition, they're going to have a hard time because I'll tell you this, you can study jurisprudence as much as you want, but if you don't have the right answer, you're going to get, you're going to get the hammer. Like you're really good at the hammer. And because I found when I was studying Camelot could have, I could read as long as I've read and understood the case, I could read the difference or this or that. And and that could just write and write and write and write as much as I could. And then I would get a good mark because it said, OK, this student didn't get the right answer, but this student understood the principles that were taught. And it's case this person, this, this versus this, you know, given the mark. Now, in civil law tradition, it's a different story. You really need to understand how to raked down regulation. The word and or not this and that. That's a huge strike and I find a lot of common law lawyers would benefit from civil law trade, civil education to understand, um, how every little word is so impactful and the work you do. On the other hand, around I found that common law is working as a common law. To answer your question, working as a common law lawyer is is a lot more liberating and can look at policies, we can look at different things, we can negotiate. It's a lot more business friendly and I've been working as a trade lawyer for a while now and for that reason, Can you imagine how trade has been absolutely gone bonkers? Now I guess it's Greenland if they'll be the IUSR and I find that as expensive when you work as a couple of lawyer, I think it's about more liberating. Can can negotiate more, you can interpret more jurisprudence obviously takes a bit more of a I have, so yeah. Fantastic. Now very interesting point of view and interesting to know a little more about, you know, your practice in in trade and how kind of having a specific law background allows you to do things differently. That's very, very interesting. And and I think that pretty much like segue into that. I also saw you have an MBA and always very interested in in something that that I hear sometimes, but I'm always curious to know what's your view on it. So I find that oftentimes lawyers are, are kind of trained to be very much risk avoidance, right? And I, I find them the other hand that business training usually focuses on managing risk and beating, you know, in finance in different aspects. So I'm wondering from your perspective, you know, when you advise government businesses, which kind of mindset leads that for you? Is it, is it like the, the lawyer avoid risk? Is it a business manage risk? Is it a little bit of everything? What? What are your thoughts? I think that as a lawyer, I think we have to stop being risk avoidant. You know, we have to be enablers, business and neighbors bring Commonwealth land. And for God's sake, I mean, this is the, this is, this is the opportunity. You have a lot of leeway to to look at different options as a lawyer. I think that do you have a client? Client has an option, right? So in government, you have just the way it usually works is that you have, well, you have an issue. That issue includes a policy option and then they have four or five options. That option becomes a decision. Note the call it and then goes to the to the attorney general. It goes to whatever the deputy administrator, depending on the level of the series of the seriousness of the of, of, of the matter, it could be, for example, let's cancel, OK, let's do this. Let's cancel Crab Royal or not. What I'm talking about alcohol, because that's the issue Narrative Council, American alcohol and all that, or EV vehicles. Alright, let's, but these decisions are a little bit more minor. I'm just, I'm just expanding here just for the, for the sake of the conversation. You have decisions, you have options to say we have option 123 or 4. These options are policy options and they're going to become law later round to her. You know which the Legislative Council and they look at legal to look at the risk and it's the legal where's job too play out the risk and it's always been that way. You lay out the risks and they say these are the risks that you have. If you choose this option. These are risk. You have this option and that option, but I find that a good lawyer and this is where the MBA kicked in not only and defies the risk, but looks at looks like a little bit more into, into what the questions asked, right. So I had a case, for example, not too long ago about, um, these bolts going on to EV vehicles. They have, the supply chain goes from United States to Canada on different parts of vehicles and, and, and, and they have this code and that code gives some tariffs and the tariffs becomes taxed. And this one becomes talks about the Kuzma agreement or the USMCA or whatever you want to call it, sheep that bolt. Should we put them in? Should we put them in Canada? Should we? You know, all these questions, I think that the MPA, what it did to me is that instead of just flat out looking at that bolt as an issue, as a legal issue, I look at it as like I'm going to call the person who's dealing with that policy and understand the business behind that bolt towards coming from where it is and see a different angle. So maybe that risk that I'm putting it is not that high. I mean, it's a bit lower. All that to say is that I'm trying to enable my business as much as possible because that way you want to do is you wanted to create a service. You know you're not. You don't want to be a fear mongering Great Wall of China every time they call you, it's always no, it's always no, It's always a risk. No, you want to say well, no, there's an option. There's another option as well. Alright, I can't tell you much other story about the bulk of the swamp going, but I'll tell you this. What I, I, I, I, I counseled was that we need to look at different ways that have that bull travel around because that bolt essentially it's steel made from Canada. It goes back to the United States, it goes back to come back to Canada. I mean that whatever that old is made of, it's it's coming back and forth crossing the border five time zones. So a business perspective of just saying, oh, you know, it's flat out, you know, that pulled, you know, that bolt is, is is is bad. It's it's not a good service. So I'll have to say having a good business mind, an MBA gives you a good mind of human human resources, Project management gives you a good insight on how supply chain works. And if you're going to go to business law, it gives you a sign of how to run a business, which gives you all the risks that a business do, but all of the risks, but also all the detriment and the, the hard work that a lot of business people go through to build a business. And um, as a lawyer, if you understand that, you would say that maybe, you know, you could have be a little bit softer in council. Fantastic. I always love to hear that from from lawyers who I drew worked specifically a lot with businesses or have that that business background. And recently one of our episodes is actually called the office of yes and I talked to in houses. I like that spoke a lot about that and and I love that you touched on the same subject. You'll have no clients. Fair enough. No client. No, you'll have no clients. So you'll see. No, no, no, you have no clients. You'll understand. OK, well, it's this is a risk, but let's try left or let's right, right, let's try different ways. In different clients, we have a different kind of appetite for risk as well, right? So, so it's important to know the options because some people are just willing to be, you know, taking those risks and all of that. Yeah, actually that's you're making a really good point here, because there's a lot of small businesses in Ontario right now. They're dealing with the AI dealing with a lot of energy. Not energy is a big, it's a big thing right now coming in with the, um, data centres using different types of energy. Uh, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot going on and you cannot, you have to understand, there's some businesses that actually have, they're actually piercing into the Gray area of a non legislative wait. I mean, the AI, for example, is a lot of data, but I so, you know, and you can't and just be no, no, no, no, there's actually a business opportunity there. There's, there's a service to the client. You have to. You have to act on. It's amazing your gene. Now I want to know kind of like a different mindset as well. As we said, you're, you're very curious person, you've studied lots of different areas and, and you've been in the military before you work with National Defence, lots of very interesting roles. So we talked about kind of the, the lawyer mindset, that the business mindset, But I also wonder if there is kind of like a, a military mindset. I suppose that in the military a lot of decisions have to be, you know, immediate life saving and and so forth. And in law, we tend to, you know, kind of slow things that will analyze it. So I'm curious if you know your experience in the military has, has shaped the urgency in which you work with legal issues, legal strategy. So I'm, I'm just curious to, to hear a little bit about that from your experience. And I'll tell you this, I'm still in the military, I'm still an officer and and tag Hillary officer and cannon forces. But I will tell you this, what the military taught me was not to act quickly. I did, but I think they really had that. But what it did do to me is that it taught me to work as a team. That's what you would tell me, because I'll tell you this when you're in, when you're in a, in a tank, for example, right. You're in a mission. You have troops to feed. You have kidney maginess. Yeah, I even have to think to give halal Russian packs to someone that I have to think about if someone's getting divorced, I'm leading 260 people into battle. I mean, that's a lot of people and the ages of 18 to 30. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's absolutely enormous that I need to take care of their pay, the welfare of the vacation, their well-being, but also have to take care of the mission, the rules of, of a fire, the the rules of, of engagements. If we take prisoners, there's legal that tactic deal with that as well. There's a lot of things to think about. Tank breaks down. What you do, you know, you break down all the time. You can just imagine you have potholes here at the carpet down. Imagine, imagine Afghanistan, how much things to break down. All that to say, to keep the story short, is that you need to work as a team. I I thought myself with that by myself, I know not a lot. I actually know nothing like in a law firm. Everyone has had different experience. It has a file. They've had the types of work they've had that the people that they're, they're experience before being in law school, they that they bring in everyone's just brings in a wealth of knowledge. The secret is it's a big good collab ordinator. So when you have a file, you have a file and I could not as a lawyer, you know, you find files that are completely ridiculous, like off the chart really goes. You have no idea, right. I had lawyers that had trade lawyers, for example, and I think your your listeners are gonna love this. They had files from Japan to get this. Japan is a trade law file. A file from Japan coming in saw it was child pornography and it was like it was anti comic book stuff. You have crazy files right coming in, but as soon as you, you, you, you, um, you understand, for example, that luckily that person, for example, had a Japanese lawyer beside them and saying that's not child pornography. That's actually comic, that's actually art from Japan. And they were able to they went to the CBSA became security Border Agency and then they actually went into the to the to The Supremes is the Superior Court of Hunter and. And they went in and did the, they discussed this and they said, no, this is this is artwork. And it worked. All that to say, you need to be really good collaborator with the people that you work with, because alone there's not much you can do. As a lawyer, there's not much you can do. You have to work with the people that you're working with. You need to know them, understand them, know where they're coming from and value that value the knowledge that they bring in Like that case that I thought it was completely crazy. I mean, you know, someone coming in with, you know, there's this there's like you FT student that went to Japan and brought brought some comics, but that coming had some sexual explicit stuff and and that was like, my God, you know, but how do they work it out? That case would not have been won trying the CSA. If that person that was not working with somebody else that knew about that and had known about that, that case would have been lost. That person would have been jailed. Right now that person was released. Um, but all I have to say is I'm just thinking about that case because I never had a case that I would call it that, that crazy or what if and more in my desk. But all that to say is it was all that. I think it's coordinating, collaborating in the military. I learned that by myself. I'm I'm nobody. I need to when I'm in the military, I needed to know the engineer. I needed to know the software engineers for the tanks. I needed to know the medics. I needed to know this. To that I need to know the to logistics officers very well, so as soon as there's an issue, they could just select U them right instead of having to go through all the people channels. Just what's up? Hey have an issue. Don't worry, Eugene, I know exactly what to do. Boom, it's done at. That's how we lived through my eight years in the military and I survived. The military is by being friends with a lot of people. Just be friends with them. Just take them out for a beer, have coffee chats, go for wings. I don't know. Just do something. Get to know them because they're going to save your life. Maybe not in the military sense, but they're going to save your life into files that you have. And that's what happened with a lot of my friends. That's fantastic. And, and I think that really kind of takes us to a good point here. I wanted to to finish up today asking about the, the field you chose for yourself in law after being exposed to all these different areas. And I feel like from my experience talking with other law students or early career professionals, there's always a little bit of a, of a question of like, what should I do with my career? Where should I take it? Should I pursue my interest or should I kind of look into, you know, the stuff that I need right now to, you know, the compensation and so forth. So I'm curious if you have any kind of advice that you know you wish you had received before or something that you tell people when you're when you're talking to younger lawyers? Yeah, well, first of all, this idea of 1L2L, I think it's complete just garbage. It's not good. It's two years of your life. Like, calm down, it's not gonna work. If it does, great, but it's not how you want. You don't have to fit the cookie cutter being a legal professional, for example, working at that, I worked a lot in Europe as a diplomat and I worked a lot in International Court of Justice and I worked in the Canadian Embassy in Belgrade and other occasional organizations. I gotta tell you this, they love Canadian lawyers. They love them. I, I had no idea, but they have something. They have something that became lawyers. As soon as there's again lawyers student, it's a it's an opportunity. I think that, you know, you don't have to be a lawyer if you study the law and even tell you borrow, there's a lot of great things you can do. And even better than being a lawyer, you're better paid. Sometimes it's the difference that someone just gets gives you for being a lawyer to being a communications officer, to be a logistics officer. In other words, the military, but I'm talking about also in the private sector. It's just more thoughtful than this person understands the rules and regulations around what they're doing. Why not? They've had a bachelors before. I'll be perfect. Could study before? Why not when you mention pay? I know Lloyd. The lawyers that I know that are mostly paid are not lawyers Would be happy in lawyers before in a long shot. The ambassadors that I've met, I've met a lot of heads, heads of states as well, all lawyers and great, great, great people. And I think that the idea is that you or an interior lawyer, you do interior bar, you do your L1L2 and you gotta go to fast scanner field chi and that's your life. I think it's completely false. I think it's I think it's it's terrible. It's not the way to you should view your your practice any. Sense I appreciate it I feel like that's one of the coolest parts about being able to interview so many lawyers who are working in interesting projects all across the world is really that I get to hear the everything in between. You know, people who kind of like went to middle school and decided that they wanted to be a lawyer. And ever since, you know, we're very happy with the firm life all the way to people who went through really, really different pathways. And I think that's what's really cool about it always that like you have a choice. Nobody does a kind of a guess on your head and and you you got your shoes. So I think. That's yeah. And especially if I have to tell you as well, that or, and if, if you know for your listeners, I could tell you that if you're a lawyer in Ontario, actually maybe that lawyer, if you studied law in Ontario without being a lawyer, you could be an international lawyer. You, you, you can go to The Hague as I have. You can work in Vienna. You can work in Geneva, we can work in the OR in New York as well as a jurist. They call them jurists and lawyers. They call them jurist because I wished you have, um, offices of lawyers of almost, you know, 30 different countries. Sometimes they didn't all pass the New York bar or the The Hague bar. They don't even speak hall Dutch or, you know, Flemish or French. But you know, they, they're lawyers. They, they, they, they studied law in their country. So I would definitely invite your listeners to also look at that option as well to look at broad and look at international organizations. Be jurist for international organizations because you don't have to be in interracial law Chapel organizations too. There's no bar. It doesn't exist. There's no international. Bar, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with us today. Thank you all for turning into today's episode. Thank you. Thank you for having me.