Curiosity, Courage, and Connection with Henaa Mall

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Whether you're studying law in Mumbai or practicing in Manhattan, Rev can help you transcribe and analyze all your case materials with verifiablecitations.learnmore@rev.com. Today we have the opportunity to receive Hannah Mull. She has an incredible story and so many fun things that she's shared with us in the past. And I'm so excited to have her here in the podcast to talk about her legal career, how she's being so involved with the legal community, and also how she found the incredible and creative ways to get, you know, her where she she wanted to be and all that. So thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me, Claudio. It's it's an honor to be on your podcast. I for one, I'm an avid listener and I absolutely enjoy listening to. It I really appreciate it. Thank you for for coming in And to start this off, I'd love for you to introduce yourself to your listeners. So can you tell us a little about yourself? Yes, so my name is Hannah. I'm an internationally trained lawyer. I landed in Canada in 2020 was he would my masters from University of Toronto. It was not GPL M, it was a general LM. After that and while I was at UTI started working as a research assistant to Professor Emily Satterwhite in tax law and policy. After I my solicitors and barristers exam, I also got an articling position with the region of Durham. I was called to the bar in 2023. After that, I landed my current role as a worker advisor and then I started mentoring and tutoring internationally trained lawyers for Ontario bar exam. And then that ventured in, you know, that took off. And then I started with Durham Region Law Association. I got on the board and was more involved with the new lawyers, with the membership committees, so on and so forth. And yeah, and now started accepting new files under my law firm, Moreland Shiver Legal Professional Corporation. So that's about. If you're an internationally trained lawyer or law student working in or trying to break into an English speaking common law system, you know that legal writing is one of the biggest challenges and one of the most important skills to master. That's where Grammatica comes in. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator, educator and founder of Grammatica International. We help lawyers and law students to write sharper, speak clearer, and land more interviews with on demand online courses, live workshops and one-on-one consulting designed just for legal professionals. I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need some guidance to really stand out in a competitive legal market. And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five countries during my 17 years in law and education. Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills generally, refresh your CD, or draft an application for a law program, Grammatica can help. Visit Grammatico to get started. And you've had quite the journey across, you know, 2 legal systems. But one of the stories that you told me in the past that I really liked was how you found your articling position. And I'd love for you to tell a little bit about that story. You know, right now when I talk about it, it almost seems like Angel to me as well. I actually found my articulating position in a newsletter. OK, and let that sink in because the position that actually found and finally the place that accepted me, you know, I had applied to almost 150 positions, but the one that I found and the one that accepted me was not on I, I did not find it on any of the regular job sites. It was in a newsletter. So The thing is that it was with region of Durham. So it is an upper tier municipality. The thing is that in India, municipality have constitutional status the way it you know, in, in Canada, we don't have that. And my first interaction with municipalities in India was not as a lawyer, but as an investment banker when we were designing municipal bonds and we were listening with the regulator to see if municipalities could have their own bonds, considering they have to be very creative in in their way of raising funds, you know, So that was really interesting to me. So when I came to Canada during my UTI, I took up a paper, municipal planning and Urban Land Use policy. While I was pursuing that, I studied about property taxes and how municipal planning works here, which was interesting. And then I decided, why not make a list of all the municipalities that are there in Ontario and subscribe to their newsletters because I want to see what they're doing. So I subscribe to, you know, Chatham, Kent and Region of Durham and City of Pickering and town of Ajax and town of Whitby, and then something in Ottawa and then something in, you know, Carlton and then Sudbury, Timmins, you name it. Susan, Mary, you name it. And I had subscribed to the newsletter because I was really interested in what they were doing. And in this, you know, I was reading through the newsletter of Region of Durham and then I found they had an article in position. I was like, you think I should apply? I, I just, I was like, OK, let me give it a shot. I remember the last date was 9th of January. On 8th evening, I was contemplating, should I apply or should I not apply? I, I think it late night I just sat, I was like, let me give this a shot. At best what's going to happen? They're going to reject me. But no, I was accepted. And let me tell you, subscribing to almost 100 newsletters was perhaps one of the best decisions I ever did while I was with Region of Durham. This exercise helped me in one of the assignments that was given to me because I had to reach out to other municipalities to collect data and you know, for something that we were looking at for certain numbers. And it was very easy because all I had to do was open the newsletter, find out the contact person and reach out to them directly instead of first going through their website and other things. So what I'm trying to say is, you don't know what a small gesture that comes from a place of curiosity can do to you and do for. You that's incredible. And, and for context here, I know that there's a few people who are familiar now with the Canadian process and all of that, and we've spoke about it in quite a few of the podcasts. But basically to become licensed in Canada, part of this process is to find these mandatory internship, let's call it that, similar to to what a train ship is in the UK. I guess that that basically means that one of the pathways to becoming licensed after taking bar exams or not necessarily in that arteries that you also have to have to do this articling job and times. This can be difficult to write, finding that position that basically will decide whether you, you can become a lawyer or not. So especially if you're in disposition of an internationally trained lawyers or, or newcomer, you can feel stuck when searching for those articling roles. So I love that you approached it really from a place of curiosity and, and, and, and from your personal interests as well. And I thought you asked if there was any strategy or mindset that also helped you to stay motivated during your searches? You know, what really helped me was the fact was the realization that I wasn't alone. It was COVID Here I was in a basement trying to connect with the rest of the world online because suddenly everything had turned online. And, you know, they often say that you shouldn't be vulnerable and you should appear to be, you know, you, you should be really strong in front of other people. What helps me find true friendships, true support during that time was me being vulnerable. I was like, I feel anxious, I feel scared. I don't know whether I'd never come out of this basement. And will my world be stuck over Zoom? Will it ever go beyond Zoom? Because people were coming up with all sorts of theories, and you were just all by yourself in a new country. So what kept me motivated was #1 the realization that I'm not alone #2 that this will end someday this way, or that it will end. And three, that I have the courage to transcend boundaries, to relocate it, you know, on the other side of 30s. So if nothing else, my courage will see me through. So it was being courageous and vulnerable at the same time. I know it sounds oxymoronic when I put it, but being vulnerable is being courageous and to realize that I'm not alone. And I had surrounded myself with really positive people. I had my sister with me who would constantly tell me that if nothing else, we'll do something, you know, if if nothing else, you'll do something else with your life. So, yeah, that really motivated me. I have had the support of fantastic friends that I found at UFT. Yeah. So I, I think that's what kept me going. One rejection letter after another and being ghosted. It feels horrible. I, I can still feel it somewhere inside what it did to me. But I can, I can promise you into everyone's struggling out there that it will. End that's incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that. I, I also noticed that that even though that time for articling and all of that has gone on and, and incredible new professional opportunities have gone on in a period. I appreciate you revisiting this for people who are in that stage now. And you did incredible things. And, and one of them is that you also published in different articles and tax and newsletters as well. So I thought I'd ask you, you know, for those maybe interested in writing or getting, you know, their name out there that way, what are some of your suggestions as well for, for maybe students who think I don't really know enough or I don't have a lot of knowledge to contribute how they can get over this fear and just get out there. Actually that's a very good question and tell you how I started. So when I was articling, I think this was around December 2022 when they first started talking about ChatGPT, right? And I, I was curious and I started playing with chargeability. So what I did was I said actually give ChatGPT a prompt which said give me 3 case laws in which court has said that it's OK to commit fraud. It's OK. Do you see the buzz, how bizarre the prompt was? And lo behold, it gave me 3 case laws. And that was the first time I was introduced to how the concept of healthy nation of AI. And I was just doing it because I was like and and I gave like the most bizarre prompt that you can think of. And every time it would get through up a case law. So I decided I said, there's something wrong with this, the way it's making up information. And then because I was articling with region of Durham, I spoke to my supervisor. I said, I want to write about this. And he said, sure, where do you want to write about? Where are you going to write about this app? I'm I'm OK if you want to write about it, but where I said, OK. And then I reached out to a few places because there was call for articles. So during reasons law associations newsletter by the name of dollar voice was accepted. You know, there was this call for articles for the spring collection for the spring edition. And I reached out to their librarian, Jenny Clarke, who very graciously said, sure, you can write. This is, you know, you, you have to fit in in 1500 word, the work has to be original, so on and so forth. And I think I, I sat down and I wrote, I sent it to my principal. He had no edits and then it was published. What I'm trying to say is that if you feel passionately about something and if the word is not passionately, if, if there's something that you want to explore through your writing, the first thing is to know where you want to write, which essentially means go over 3-4 newsletters, go over report. Like for instance, currently there is call for articles by Ontario Reports on how the overhaul in civil litigation rules like rules of civil procedures going to impact the justice system. So if it is something that you truly want to write about, read a couple of articles that Ontario Reports has published and then go ahead and write share it with your friends and couple of people from the profession. You would be amazed to see how helpful can they be. And once you have received their inputs, send in your work. So the idea is that A get feedback from other people B. If not passionate, then at least you should be curious about that area and see read a couple of articles that are already published to see if your work fits in. Like for something like a Chad GPA. I knew I'm not going to write publish A6000 word paper. It was an opinion piece. It was something which was like thousand 1100. So share to actually send it to you know, anything beyond a newsletter would not have helped. So A identify your audience. B identify your newsletter, say get feedback ND if which is actually should be a be genuinely curious about it. You should want to explore it or you should feel about it, or if nothing else, you should have something to say about it. So those couldn't really help me. No, that's fantastic. I like that because it's incredible for these ideas, but also for really any kind of writing, be it, you know, writing on LinkedIn, writing on it, as you said, articles, newsletters, anything. It's a really good piece of piece of idea. And then just identifying that public and and who's your audience might really just be, you know, the key for any kind of writing at all, right, Be just admission to the court and e-mail anything. So thank you so much for for highlighting that. Yeah, I mean, I, I do write. I have all. I've always written even even when even when I was a child and then I was a columnist in a newspaper in India. So you're right, keeping in mind who is going to read at the end of the day, who's going to consume this. So you have to then tailor your writing, your opinion, your tone to suit your audience because the idea is that it should reach maximum number of people. So this was something that I picked up when I started writing my own column in India. That's incredible. OK, so and and that's just, you know, one of the things that people can do that that riding right. But another thing that I saw that you do as well and indeed and have been doing is community involvement as well. So I'd love to ask you a little bit about, you know, how, how that plays a role in your life and how and also how in a way that's shaping your career path. See, when I first came here, I realized that nobody knows me and I don't know anybody. So and so tomorrow, if something were to happen to me in my basement, my neighbor wouldn't know me. And I know it comes from a very dark place, but the thought that if like you are invisible, right was, was very scary. And then I once again realized it's not just me. There are people who are coming from all over the world. English may or may not be their first language. They may or may not have the same privileges I have as I have had. And they might be feeling the same thing. So everything you know, the answer to most questions is when you dip into what you are truly feeling, you would be able to reach out because, you know, this is not how I want to feel. And I do not want anybody else to feel that way. And if something has helped me, why should it not spread? So community involvement is a very, very big piece in my life. It plays a very important role. I run SAB group, which is called international, you know, it's called internationally trained lawyers in Ontario that focuses on information that can help other people, information that I did not have access to, information that could have saved hours and hours of my time. So I think that it's, it's very, very important to be able to share. And the more you share, the more you get whether it is a thank you, whether it is some, some sometimes a note if I'm searching, like I had a query on the same group, I said, I, I had actually written this question. Can I speak to real estate lawyers? And so many people responded. So it's not just that, it's not just that it's for me, it's, it's the same thing for everybody. If you're searching for someone and you have or something and you have a community to go to, you realize you're not alone. You have you have an army standing beside you. You just need to ask. And I think that was very, very important. And the whole idea of community involvement actually comes from my parents because both of them are very active in our community in India, like my mom has, You know, she, she, she's the area where said officer, my dad has been actively involved in. We've always seen people at our place at all sorts of time and sitting and discussing problems. And consequently, when, when there was some issue that happened at my case, I didn't have to worry. All I had to do was make few calls and everyone showed up. So community involvement, especially in a world which is getting so insular and so focused on my needs and Netflix and 30 minute deliveries, community involvement is very important. Peer support, community involvement, they keep you afloat sometimes. I've seen that. You know, as we've been hearing from lawyers around the world on this show, one thing that's universal is the challenge of managing massive amounts of case materials. Whether you're dealing with witness statements in Sydney or reviewing contracts in Chicago, the volume can be overwhelming. That's why I wanted to tell you about Rev. Instead of analyzing documents one at a time, you upload everything to 1 workspace PDF's, audio recordings, video depositions, transcripts, Revs. AI analyzes them altogether and spots connections you'd never catch working file by file. Every insight comes with clickable citations that take you right back to the source. So when the AI finds a contradiction between witness statements, you can verify it instantly. Whether you're a law student or practicing attorney building your international career, Rev Insights gives you that edge our guests always talk about. Check it out at rev.com. That's incredible. It doesn't make sense. It it has, I guess to do with, you know, your sense of self worth, but also with doing something good, being out there and also, you know, in the end, meeting people, talking to them, getting to understand also the community dynamics and so much so really, it's a really important point. I think it's those things are are really very interesting and and are great ways to, you know, be able to project yourself and and get you the chance to introduce yourself to more people. As you said, those will help in any other area of work. Right. Yeah, and stories. Who doesn't like to hear good stories? I absolutely love listening to people. Where are they from? What has been their journey like what got them here? Look at the amount of storytelling it involves. It'll always keep you enthralled. You can always learn from somebody else's experience. And and and that's how friendships are born. That's how you know bonds are forged. And then before you know, you have made a friend you life. And solutely, absolutely going towards the end of today's episode, I wouldn't you ask your Hannah if, if you could, you know, either tell yourself a piece of advice if you were to go back in time or for people who are listening and are going through this process now of getting established, either they're finishing up law school or starting up their careers. What are what are maybe a few things you wish you had heard when you were going through this very first stages of the process. Did the first thing I would statewide 2020 cells is it will all be OK. This will end and it will all be OK. And much as it sounds cliche, believe me, it does. We all have a set path and we we are on it just that we don't realize it. And the thing that I'd like to share with those people who are in this process and right now struggling in feeling low or anxious or hopeless sometimes is that deep into your own life experience. Be authentic because there is literally just one you there are things you know, it's, it's funny I say this that what is, what is your superpower? And all of us have superpowers that cannot be easily found in other people. Maybe you are good at business development. Maybe you are good at paying attention to detail. Maybe you're an avid listener there. There is something that's unique about each one of us. All we need to do is find that instead of being overtly critical and being like copies of each other, find something that is truly unique about you. And no, I do not believe in this statement. Oh, I have nothing unique in myself. I don't have anything to offer. No, there are things that only you can offer and that's why you're here. There's only one you. And I found this when I was struggling that and, and like, for instance, I teach and teaching is therapeutic for me. I've I've taught since I was 13 and I knew that's my superpower. Reaching out to people and being friends and being easy going. Now you might say, but that's not a superpower. Well, it's conspicuous by its absence in the world we live in because it's so transactional. If you can actually be a human to someone else, like, you know, be your true self and end up having connections, you don't know how they'll help you. Like I can tell you some of the best things that happened to me have actually happened in a completely non law setting. Like I was in the library. The librarian said, I love you, your your rings. I said, here, take them. These are traditional earrings. I'm going to get them more. I'm going to get ask my mom to get more of them. And before we know, you know, we became friends and we're friends for life. So it's just simple exchange of your earrings that sometimes leads to these things. So be authentic and give yourself to that moment. I know it's sounds like, Oh my God, it's philosophy. No, it isn't. And you know, I, I, I met someone today, she said, you know, when you write your book, you should write it should be titled but for this, but for my visit to the library, this wouldn't have happened. But for subscribing to newsletters, this wouldn't have happened. And I said yes, because it's something that I did because I wanted to and not because it was guided by or whether it will lead to an articling position or not. That was not the thought behind it. You know, I don't know. Robert Frost is one of my favorite poets and he's written a book, The Road Less Traveled, where he said two roads diverged in yellow woods and I took the less travelled pie and that made all the difference. That is actually something that I've believed in and it has helped me so far. That's amazing. Well, I really appreciate that piece of advice. It's very much applicable for for myself even that's one of the the great parts of being part of the the podcast is that I get to listen to to every single person's advice and and definitely am a big it's a big benefit for me. No, no joke at all. So I really appreciate you taking the time to being here in the podcast today and we'll be in touch. Thank you so much for tuning into the episode as well to all listeners. Thank you so much. It was wonderful being here. You take care and all the best. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Yeah.