Clear Writing, Finding Your Voice and Real Advice with Amanda Haverstick

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. Today, I have the opportunity to interview Amanda Haverstick. We'll be talking about a few different things, but Amanda has had such an incredible career. She's been a lawyer, She has worked with helping students with their careers at a university, and she's a book author. She's a LinkedIn superstar and so many other things. So thank you so much for joining us today, Commander. Thank you for taking the time. You're welcome. And I, as I always say, I think it looks like kind of good on the outside. And then when you get off course from my perspective, I'm sort of trying to still figure out what I'm doing. So is so thank you for that intro. Well, thank you for your time. And to start off, I, I'm sure that most of our listeners are already quite familiar with your work in the social media and with DRL and so many other good things you've put out there. But would you mind introducing yourself to your listeners a little bit and telling us about your journey? Sure. I am a former big law lawyer. I worked for about 20 years in big law. I worked in house for a couple of those years. I'm a mother to three and I stopping a lawyer about nine years ago now 8 or 9, and I took some years off. I have a big gap. And then COVID happened and I think as a lot of people found it sort of looked life in the face of you and what are you doing? And so I was turning 50 and I just kind of on a whim, someone was like, oh, you really should do social media marketing, which I had no idea what was that. So I just went starting one post at a time back in early, I mean, September 2021, I guess it was and it really took off And there was, it was great. I started with a mission to help really the one out. And I had started my first time tutoring was earlier in 2021, and it was during the pandemic. So everything was really to be a student then and have it all be remote was extremely difficult. And so out of that, I just, but legal writing is always so hard for people. So that was something that I knew that I had a lot of experience in. And it's really evolved and led to a book, Dear 1L Notes to nurture a new legal writer, which is on Amazon. And I, the people who have read it, I mean, and it's done well. I mean, it's just me by myself. I didn't have a publisher or anything, but they've all said that it's really indispensable. And now that some people have it, everyone really needs to read it before they start law school because there's some core lessons that you, that you're only going to learn if you read it. So, so that's how I have a website which has a lot and, and I've been, yeah, the whole LinkedIn thinks crazy. Don't you think it's wild? I don't know. I, I didn't set out to do any of this, but I, yeah, I have a big following on LinkedIn and it's been lovely. That's so fantastic. You, you've had really a reached career as as you mentioned, well, you know, big law, in-house teaching, coaching. And if I may ask you, if you could go back to your very first day as a lawyer, what kind of advice would you give yourself back then? Well, my tongue and cheek. My short little answer is to always carry a pen and a pad of paper when you go into a partner's office because I learned the very hard way when I didn't on my very first day and was sent back to my office to go get pen and a paper to write with and it was most unpleasant. So that's probably what I would have said that I have a romanticized view or had a romanticized experience in big law because I met my husband on the first day of work. So in Westlaw training to boot. So, and before that, I had been in Boston for law school and I had this big decision was like going to stay in Boston or go back to New York where I was from and had grown up and all my friends were starting to go. And I was completely single. And I mean, I was 26 and I, Long story short, had just sort of, I went to New York, bought my own apartment, started my life as a career woman, and then met my husband, my current husband, Matt. So that's really fun. And so for the first year or so, I was sort of, I mean, I was madly in love with someone who's at work and then we got married. So it was like a really happy experience. So I would say that you never know what's going to happen. Keep, you know, always be open to new new possibilities. Well, that's fantastic. Yeah. That has been one of the fun things of talking to different lawyers because things seem to happen when people, you know, show up at work, have a good attitude, beat in their personal life, in their professional life. Just very unexpected more often than not. But things just happen. And I don't know what you call that a specifically, but it's being just amazing to witness that and to hear all about it. Well, I think that I really think that you need to just do you put yourself in situations where you're doing what you would do regardless of who you're going to meet and do something that you are just set to do. Because then once you do that, I think you look attractive and you attract people because you look like you got stuff together. I don't know, We're all trying to figure it. Out very enough. Fair enough. So I did a little digging on your website and all of that and I and I noticed something that I really thought it was amazing. You mentioned something along the lines that you really love seeing your students outgrow you. And I was just wondering if there is like a one moment that made you really proud as a as a coach, as a mentor, as somebody who's who's there to, you know, teach and cheer on future generations in a way. That I've been very fortunate to have had wonderful interactions even when I was in big law. The thing I love the most was the mentoring and the the guiding of junior associates. But I will get my recent story is last summer I had a student, a pre law student reach out to me and he was very insecure about starting law school because he was a musician and had spent college studying music mostly and had also done math law school. He just was worried English was his second language to boot. So there was another layer and he just thought, I mean, he really, and he, he was so brilliant, but he and he was going to a T14, which is the sort of top ranked fourteen in law schools in our country. And so we worked on it with A1 on one to get him ready for law school. And it's, it was a five session one-on-one thing that we did, but he left the fifth one and said, OK, I think I'm ready to start, but I want to save it for before exams and what have you. Long story short, he got straight A's in everything. His first memo was like used as a model for the class. And so I would get these notes from him throughout the semester. I mean, it was just, it made me feel so good because this was the first student that I had really spent a lot of time with helping them get ready for the first year of law school and be prepared to come in with their like, are their command of English language as rock solid as possible? Because as you know, once you filter, you Add all the layers of complexity with the legal terms and the complex ideas. If you, I mean, if you need to have really good writing, that's just perfect form wise so that these, the concepts, when you add them into the to regular writing makes sense and they're complicated. So he did such a great job. I was so proud of him and he's just soaring. So that's my proud moment. That's fantastic. That's so good to hear. And and going on to legal riding one of your specialties here, I'm sure you can feel intimidating. You just mentioned this student, but I'm sure sometimes even for seasoned lawyers, I feel things can, you know, be something that they they need to double check or talk with somebody over. So is there such a thing as like a big myth that you see people in the legal industry thinking about or believing about in regards to legal writing? I don't know that I would say a myth necessarily, as I see the problem as legal writing and the great advice from a couple experts at the top really just is not filtering down to everyone. It's legal writing has always been something that's that, you know, most erudite of scholars and you think of, I think of old men and dusty robes and this sort of cloak and it's just scary. It's like mystical. It's so abstract. It seems like there is an unending university universe of things to learn. And there's also, you'll have different partners writing styles, some of which are not necessarily good, that go into the mix of how 1 needs to write. And there's also depending on what you're writing and what your audience is, it will all change. And I think that there are so many people who struggle with legal writing. And I really believe it's that one of the root causes is that people are starting law school and they don't remember grammar from middle school. They haven't thought about it. It's not, it's not, you know, something that's really a focus in college where really they're measuring substance and, and your idea is not your, your grammar. So I, I want to, I really think that we need to like take off the like, this is like in this dusty book from old time that we have to figure out and really make it more accessible to everyone. And so, I mean, that's sort of what I think, at least in terms of me and I and my goal of sort of bringing, trying to make it easy for people to learn because it's so hard legal writing, right? I mean, and it takes so long and you beat yourself up and lawyers spend so much time writing that it's really, there's a lot of time spent alone writing at your computer and beating yourself up because you're not sure if your words sound right or if you're writing it right. So that's kind of, that's what I really want to change about legal writing and how we learn it. I. Love that. So we, we spoke about a few different things, went over a little bit of your career, a little bit of, you know, ideas, moments of success, talked about legal writing. And if I may ask you, you know, you bring a lot of gems from your from your book, Dear 1L on LinkedIn every once in a while. And I'm thinking here also regarding professionals who are a little more mature in the legal field. What would you say to someone who's feeling a little stuck in their career and maybe is scared to pivot or trying something new, be, you know, getting out of a law firm, going and shooting house, or be it, you know, going through a quasi legal role or something completely out of the legal field. What are some of your thoughts? It's difficult because the decision is all wrapped up in money most of the time. And the practical reality can be that because it was for me, you know, kept working in big law because I needed that money and I it, it just was, I had three children and I was trying to do it all. I mean, it was hard. And so I think that if you're at the stage where you could financially accept it, and it's, it really depends on what kind of income you need to make. But what I would say to all really, and, and I'm just going to keep stressing the importance of communication skills. But if you keep investing in your skills and your, your speaking skills, you're writing, you're interacting with people, that's going to be really helpful no matter what you decide to do. So if you're still kind of stuck and you need to be stuck for money or you, or you're not quite sure yet what you want to do, I would, I would advise to work on those things because and don't feel like you're stuck, like you're actually doing something that's going to help you later. So that it's useful use of your time that you should be writing and practicing and learning. And I think so, so that's that in terms of people who really are just need to push and who are ready and need to move on. I would say that there is so there's so much life after big law and you can really get, you get in this. I found a big law. It's such a hierarchy. And the corner office partners are like kings and their sort of, I mean, they walked down the hall and you just sort of, oh, royalties walking. I mean, it's, it's you feel the divide, the hierarchy. There's also a big usually age divide, which exacerbates it. And so once when I went in house, the biggest difference I noticed is that people would say thank you and be so appreciative when you would do something. And that's kind of a bad commentary I think on the culture just generally at law firms where you're just a service person to the clients and you kind of no one care, you know, about how you feel about the feedback you're getting. So that's kind of a long winded answer. That makes a lot of sense taking that into consideration here, you know, between writing, coaching, family life, you must have a really full schedule and and also keeping on top of all the notifications on LinkedIn as well. But if I may ask you on a more personal side, what what's your favorite way to recharge or find a moment of calm after all of? That actually, I mean, I think it's a little bit I, I am busy only because I spend a lot of time creating and thinking and I don't take on very many clients in part because I'm trying to figure out whether I need to make, how much money I need to make myself and what, whether that's, you know, how important that goal is and all of it. But I would say the fun things. I have three daughters that are in their early 20s and I just love listening to music and talking to them. We have really fun times and I, they, I see them And so it's lovely. And and that's probably my just greatest sort of enjoyment. Fantastic and she Rep up today's episode. I I thought I'd try a little bit of a fun more silly over question here. But you know, you've lived in some great cities, work that some iconic places like Hershey's. And if you could describe your career journey using a candy bar, which one would you pick and why? So I didn't know this question in advance. I'm going to spill your beans. So I have had a little thinking time about it. This is not necessarily what would have come to me right away, But when I was at Hershey, they had sweet and salty bar and I thought maybe the combination, something about the contrast, because in my whole career, I've always I've really, I've been a mom and I've been a lawyer and balancing them and they're so different. And then also I had always wanted to be a teacher and I kind of ended up going to law school. That's another long story that I won't say, but I I think that somehow these two different things, the writing and the lawyer and just sort of came together all but none of it looks. I mean, it was not planned and there was so much inner torment along the way. But then after a certain point you think oht this all makes sense looking backwards. That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, I just wanted to really thank you so much for your time for speaking with me today and thank you all for tuning into this episode and hope to see you on the next one.