The Visibility Mistake, AI Search, and the Reality of Night Law School with Nick Cohen

Welcome to studying law around the world. I'm Claudio. Claus in each episode. I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I'm interviewing Nick Cohen. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here in the podcast. I'm very excited to learn a lot about your story with marketing, with law firms and with being in in the field for quite a while now. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. I love talking about this stuff, so thanks for thanks for having me. On Absolutely and Nikos off here today, I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about your story and how you ended up working this interesting intersection of like law, marketing, business. Yeah. So I come from a very large family of lawyers on the son of two trial lawyers. My brother is an attorney, my uncle is an attorney. I have 3 cousins in law school and I have another cousin is an attorney. And so I was born into this sort of intense attorney world. Or when I was younger, I started helping my parents do their marketing at their law firm in Washington, DC. And today it's one of the most well known critical injury plaintiffs firms in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area. As we got really good at it, we started helping other firms with it and my company Matador Solutions was warrant. What mattered or does is basically helps small to mid sized law firms get more cases using the Internet and then we share information amongst all the firms. So it's like a hybrid agency needs to think tech. While I was building, you know, assisting and building Matador, I went to law school at night and got my JD and then I took the bar and passed, thank God, and opened up a law firm just a couple of months ago. So today I straddle sort of both worlds. I have my own law firm and I have matter war and I, you know, love doing both. Amazing. So I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, this experience of starting very, very young both, you know, I, I guess hearing a lot about the law dinner table and then also actually getting some, you know, work boots on the ground in, you know, cold engine business online and all of that. How did those early experiences shape the way you you think about growth today and and the way the internets working? Yeah. So I don't really take any, you know, at the time or something fun my dad and I were doing, he's a techie kind of guy as well. And you know, combined what we're doing there with our decisions about cases my parents were working or really, you know, intense trials they were doing, it sort of gave me a different appreciation for what lawyers do. People don't normally like lawyers. I love lawyers. And then in starting that adore, it was really something my dad had started doing. I wasn't selling the picture at the time just to help friends and family who were frustrated with Internet marketing. And this was a decade ago. And then guys that got re involved in it, we really started to push it because we had a great product market fit, so to speak, of what lawyers needed and what we could offer. And then, you know, I think in the business front, those childhood experiences of allowed me to understand the business of law in a way that most, not all, but most marketers just don't fully understand. And so we're able to ingrain that in the DNA of our company. And you know, what types of cases are good? What's bad, why are they good? Why are they bad? Why is this keyword good to go after? And so it allows us and affords us just this unique understanding of lawyers in the business side of law that I don't know, You know, I'm sure I would have learned otherwise, but the learning curve would have been a lot harder. No, that's amazing. It's it's been very interesting to chat with lawyers here in the podcast and to see how that goes when you go in a law firm through the, you know, the track of thing and associate becoming a partner and kind of at some experiences having to become somewhat of a ring maker overnight and figuring it all out really quickly. So it's awesome that you got you learned that early on, but also it's interesting that it's it's a very different approach, I feel like right. So I'm not sure sure specifically about your industry and how you go about it, but I've been seeing lots of things about how you know, over the the past, I don't know, 1020 years, there was a big focus on like search engine optimization. Now there's a little bit of a focus on like you on your answer should be shown up by AI. So there's there's so many different places you should be working on and I'm sure there's interesting industry has changed somewhat in the last few years. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that as we go through our conversation here today. Still on on the topic of of your story and career eventually lost who at night while working full time. You just mentioned that, you know what, what did I teach you about discipline, trade-offs, long-term thinking? And if you could tell us a little more about this specific experience? I don't think as far as I know, Canada does not offer any program like that. So I'm so glad that different places are offering that kind of experience. I I personally know somebody who's studying in the UK grown Canada, so it's an online degree. I saw that like Arizona State University offers a hard time remote JD. So I'm just curious to hear a little bit about how that experience went for. You it was hell and well worth it. So let me talk a little bit about my life. Looks like for four years. So night school is a fantastic decision and I'll talk about why I think it's such a good decision and then I'll talk about my schedule. So reason number one is financially law by law school makes a lot more sense. If you're able to work during the day, you won't have at a minimum cost of living lungs, right? You can pay your living expenses while you're in school and limit your loans and you go to the school that gives you the most money wherever it is. And the US law school is very expensive. You're going to be better off when you graduate. So that that's the first piece that I think is really important. The third, the second piece of why night law schools should decision was the discipline. My schedule. In my case, I was out of the house for 14 hours a day during night law school and driving, and it was insane. And I'll get to the schedule in a second. But the discipline you learned from having to do that, you don't have a choice and you don't have an option to be inefficient or waste time. And then the third thing is the people. And this isn't a Ding on day students at all, but in my experience with night students, you know, I started when I was 25 years old and I was one of the youngest people, not the youngest, but one of them. And people in my class had families and marriages and kids and so much important stuff. And so the people were there not to bring anybody down. There was no competitiveness. Everyone helped each other out, lifted each other up when they needed it, and they were there for the right reasons as opposed to somebody who just graduated college is like crap. I don't know what to do. I'm gonna go to law school and take out, you know, 200,000 loans and that's what I'm gonna do. So those are the three big things that night lost all taught me. Now, it wasn't at all easy, right? My schedule was, I was in my case in the office at 7:30 in the morning, right? So it's up at 6:30, in the office at 7:30 and I work straight through lunch, straight until about 4:30. So around 7:30 to 4:30. And then I would sit in the car for an hour and a half to drive to downtown LA from Santa Monica. That would take an hour and a half because of the traffic. And then I have class from 6:00 PM to 10:00 PM. And then I'd get out of class at 10:00 PM. I'd get home at 10:30. I would make an egg sandwich. I'd have that egg sandwich eaten and done by like, I don't know, 10:45 or 10:50 in the shower, out of the shower by like 1105 in bed, 10 minutes later, up at 6:30, do it again. And that was one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. But it was well over there for the reasons I spoke about earlier. And I think, you know, working during the day and going to law school at night, it affords you a understanding of the world and allows you to put together like legal theory and rules and case law in a way that if you're just going straight into it, you can't fully understand or you're learning curve will be higher. It's the same as if somebody takes five years off before law school and goes and goes. Amazing, a very, very interesting phase of life. I actually personally also did had an interesting experience. So I I grew up in Brazil and you can actually do high school at night time because so many of the students work during the day. So we do have high school during the night. Well, it does the same thing happens with law school, but law school in in civil law countries is usually a bachelor's degree, five years bachelor's degree at night, studying all through high school. Sorry, working through high school and college. It was it was highly experienced. But I'm glad that like other markets are getting a little bit more friendly towards the the possibility of being able to do more than one thing at once. And I feel like that brings a little bit more of an understanding on the market as well that that those things are possible and that, you know, people just have to do what they gotta do that especially when lost, who's so expensive. Yeah, and now you could probably work and like it's nothing and you're efficient and you don't get caught up in the ES and you're able to just, you know, that was my that was my experience, right? And I think a lot of people are real, but shared that experience. And I would speak today's students and they'd be like, it's so cut throat, it's so competitive. I don't know what you're talking about. I love my classmates and I don't care who's, you know, 1st or last or whatever it is. And maybe this is something worth getting into because I was, you know, I started out and after my first year, I was #4 in my class. And because of that, they gave me a 90% scholarship. And then after that, I just let it, you know, taper down. But the person who was #1 in my class, she had two kids and a full time job. Like my life was nothing compared to her. No, that's amazing. It, it definitely gives you an opportunity to so maybe you know, get that, maybe like that highlight that you wouldn't get otherwise in an environment where you like basically studies is the only thing you're focused on. So that's very interesting and definitely makes a difference on the demographic that attends that. And so it's, it's quite, it's quite an interesting experience, personally speaking. But, but tell me a little more about, you know, your current role. I understand you're the founder and the, the CEO at matter and you work with over 150 law firms. So I wanted to hear, you know, a little bit about what kind of work you do, what your day-to-day look like and then what firms have to do, you know, to get and stay on track getting revenue that that comes from those ads from that market. So I'm not, I'm not the founder of the company was started by my dad and as I mentioned, it was, you know, family and friends sort of business and then I got involved and we've been growing it together. I'm not the original founder, I'm operating it and my day-to-day, you know as we've grown over 180 law firms as that we work with, you know my day-to-day split up about and fifths, right. So 20% of the time I'm talking to new potential members or clients, 20% of the day I'm talking to existing members, right? Just, you know, working with our account managers and things like that. 20% of the day I'm spending on SEO strategies and marketing, 20% of the day I'm spending on HR, finance, that sort of stuff. And then the other 20% of the day I'm getting pulled into wherever people need me as kind of the support. And so you know how my hand in a lot of different things. And that's been a really great it's also really hard and to compete today as as a law firm, you know, you don't need to spend buckets of money and and you know, depending on your you're gonna go compete in personal injury like you use your build a little bit of a war chest. But you know, most firms can get a long way just by networking and building Google reviews for you and hiring somebody like me and then wanted to hire somebody like me. It's sort of supercharged it. That's sort of what my day looks like. Amazing, now that sounds sounds quite interesting. It's always interesting for me as well. Should conquer people who who divide their practice with all their things. Personally, I do the podcast because they really energizes me to talk with people getting to know people in in the profession or you know, in other roles. Sometimes that the professional setting, it's hard to strike more like personal conversations, asking people about their careers and all of that. Oftentimes clients are very, very open to chatting, but they also have very limited amount of time and you don't want to be, you know, setting it up too much. So it's, it's definitely a way that I found you out of that in the world. And I'm curious here now talking about, you know, specifically the work you do a lot of lawyers, including myself, you know, there's so many little words, you know, SEO, AI, search, digital visibility, there's all these things. And then in another hand, there's like different bar associations or different parts of the country who have different regulations and advertise legal services and this and that. So what do you think it matters the most if people are trying to build their know their brand or their firm now? What matters the most before you worry about colours, fonts, whether you know, whether your long hair, short hair, what matters the most is are you in front of people when they need you? At the end of the day, you could be the best lawyer in the world. You don't have cases. It doesn't matter for your business. Sorry about the business side, right? Personal is different, but I think people get people over index. They overvalue branding when they're starting out. It's important. I'm not saying it's not as opposed to getting in front of people and you need them. And so that can look like a lot of different things, right? If we're talking about search engine optimization, what that is mostly Google, Bing, Yahoo, if we're talking about generative engine optimizations, which is AI search or AEO, it's all kind of the same. But the term that's winning is generative engine optimization. You need to be in front of people when they're searching. So for example, we got a call today from somebody who was a or not we, I was on the call with the firm we worked with today and in the middle of Texas, like not where you would think that AI sort of use adoption is very high. And so I'm, you know, on with the, my firm that I work with there. And I'm, we're going through the call tracking report that we produce and we're listening to the call and the lawyer asked the potential new client, how did you hear about us? And she says, I put my issue into Gemini. I spoke it into Gemini and this is, and they told me to call you. And that's like, whoa, you're talking about someone who's doing an older demographic in a non coastal that's not going to adopt this fast. And this is how fast adoption is happening. And so at the end of the day, right, you need to worry about am I in front of people when they need it? That's it. So whether that's an ad, right, which I don't love ads, whether that's an ADSCOGO, social media, organic, whatever it is. There is A and just going back to that idea of you know, the different regulations and how that changes kind of depending on where you are. It's my understanding that you work not only for the states or for California, you you kind of have a worldwide practice. So I wanted to hear a little more about, you know, this rare position that you are being a licensed lawyer, being a marketing operator. How does that, you know, legal training change the way you approach growth, ethics and so forth in in legal marketing? Yeah, ethics are super important, especially because, you know, each state's a little bit different. We typically will follow the ABA and then if there's a unique state, we'll look at that state. But you have to be smart and you have to be careful. So one of the things that ranks really well to show your expertise is talk about whatever the statute is governing, whatever the statute of limitations right now, if you misstate that or the lawyer that you're writing for, you're in trouble. If you say best ha certain areas of the country, you can't say that in. And so you have to have strict guidelines on how you do that. And we have had a lot of training on this. I provide intense training. It's important to us because most vendors don't think about it and they just write or they don't know or they rely on their clients to educate them. But at that time, it's already too late and you have to be very strict and very thoughtful about it. So yeah, it's important. Certain laws, like New Jersey has very unique laws on what you can market for your case results and what you can't. So you have to be smart there. Yeah, fantastic. Well, thanks for sharing that you to wrap up today's episode, I wanted to ask you something more specific to the audience of the podcast. So a lot of my audience right now is, you know, professionals finishing up law school or in their first year. And a recurring question that I ask is a lot about, you know, ask your guests how they chose their area of practice and and all of that. And in this case, I wanted to ask you though, if lawyers are looking tricks, exploring a little more of entrepreneurship, business stack, marketing, maybe what what's some kind of advice that you give? Yeah. Well, I'll answer like 2 pieces because, right, because I have my law firm, which is new and we've taken in a couple of cases this year and that's really exciting and all it's on the marketing in the business overall. So my law firm handles personal injury and employment law, and I found those areas of law particularly interesting in part because I was born into it and I saw the good work that was being done right. And then I was born into it. So unique access and viewpoint to it. And I really loved it. And when I was in the third grade, I wrote in an essay, right, or an essay, whatever an essay is in 3rd grade. And my mom found and it just said lawyers help people. And that's what it said. And I really think about that a lot like the job of a lawyer is to be an advocate and see a helper. And for me, like in the employment law context, especially if you're able to get somebody who wrongfully terminated or racially discriminated against or sexually harassed in the workplace, you're able to help them and it doesn't cost them anything because you're in contingency. Like I found that just be very gratifying. So I think, you know, and I think there's a lot of really important legal practices, right? Family law is very important. Estate planning is incredibly important. Bankruptcy is really challenging and really important. It's all important, right? And so find what's important to you and make that what you do. Because if you're not doing things that are exciting to you, every day is going to be a drag. And I think about that a lot. Like I've gotten excited by Shiny Object in the past, but that wasn't actually interesting to me at all. And so when it's uninteresting, you're just for me, I just wasn't going to give it my best effort. And on the marketing and business and entrepreneurship shot, you know, it's the same thing, except my drive that Matador is really, I mean, I love SEO. I spend 20% of my day literally just researching on SEO and I've been in it since I was 12 years old doing SEO, so a long, long time. And for me, the love that I have for Matador has nothing to do with SEO. What it has to do with is helping good lawyers get the right cases and helping them grow their business. Because I don't work with 100 lawyer law firms, I work with 1 to 15 lawyer firms. And you make a real impact with the work you do. And so I view it more like I help lawyers help people, and that's what it's really about for me. Amazing. Thank you so much for for taking the time to share a little more about your sorry and thank you all for tuning into today's. Episode thanks for having me.