"There is a Paralegal for That": Inside Ontario's Paralegal Profession with John-Paul Rodrigues and Justin D. Rochester

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. This evening I have the opportunity to host John Paul Rodriguez and Justin Rochester. Thank you both so much for taking the time to being here in the podcast. I just wanted to do a quick introduction here and then I'll I'll ask you to speak a little more about yourselves respectively before JP. He's an award-winning legal instructor and paralegal program coordinator at Trios College, founded the Paralegal Town Hall Forum connecting paralegals, lawyers, taters and students to discuss the present and future of the profession. He tutors betterly paralegals students for the P1 licensing exam and has featured over 500 legal professionals on his YouTube Justice in Pieces. Beyond legal communication, AP is a lawyer who primarily works as a telephone duty counsel on criminal and immigration matters. So Claudia, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be on the other side of the microphone answering questions. I know someone who's talked to so many legal professionals like yourself. I think you've been a guess as well on mine. And yeah, I'm, I'm involved. It's actually Tribes College but I've been there for 10 plus years and I've been giving everything I have focused on the paralegal profession and helping paralegals thrive and cultivating those knowledge of the students so they can succeed in the field. It was such a pleasure to being Justice and Pieces and I appreciate you being here with us today. I also want to introduce Adjusting Rochester, who is a licensed paralegal, a practicing criminal law in Ontario and pitching at multiple colleges. With over 9 years of experience and more than 7000 court appearances, Justin has trained lawyers and paralegals while advocating for clients every day. Thank you so much for being here, Justin. Thank you so much for having both of us, Claudio. We really appreciate everything you're doing for paying attention to these legal issues and, and discussions that help further understandings. And that's very important. And yeah, I'm myself, I've been practicing or providing legal services and criminal law for just 10 years now. It's been quite fulfilling. There's not a lot of paralegals in that realm that kind of do what I do. And so it's always great to see new paralegals and join the ranks of criminal practice, for lack of a better term. Yeah. And I teach them multiple colleges. And I cofounded the Paralegal Town Hall alongside my good friend John. Paul Rodriguez Amazing. So to start over interview tonight, I, I wanted to ask you a little more about the role that paralegals play. I've heard that Ontario has a very specific and unique setting where paralegals can do a little more than they could in other jurisdictions, be it in the US or even in other Canadian provinces. So can you tell me a little more about the role that paralegal splay and and specifically how this works here in Ontario? Yeah, for sure. So, you know, we really are like one of the only places in the world that has this secondary licensing and it's really a beautiful thing because access to justice is realized. We are trained quite, quite well and we have a strenuous academic journey in order to take to get licensed. And once we are, we become especially essentially sorry, specialists in our in our fields. And paralegals are declogging courtrooms. They are making sure individuals who would not normally have representation get representation. Because to be quite frank, the alternative to a paralegal is not a lawyer for most people. It's out of their price range. The alternative is self representation, which can be, you know, quite adverse for them and just as far as getting the best outcome possible or even worse, going to jail or criminal record. So far, leagues play a crucial role and we do things in civil and the tribunals, administrative law. There's a lot of places looking at Ontario, seeing that it works and and thankfully are starting to move their mind towards opening up their legal system to house paralegals and in the same way that Ontario does. Yeah, I would certainly add paralegals are independently regulated by the Lost City. So they're, they're just like lawyers and that they have to go through a regulation process. They gotta finish education, they gotta pass licensing exams, they gotta be of good character, they gotta do their CPD requirements. And so when you look at it within their scope, as Justin alluded to, U.S. dollar limit in small claims court, certain summary conviction offences or should I bring matters that proceed summarily within criminal law? There are hundreds if not close to 1000 different tribunals aware and as well as traffic tickets and other provincial offences. You can have a paralegal representing the plaintiff in small claims court and you can have a lawyer representing the defendant. Or you can have a paralegal representing an implicated the human rights tribunal and you can have a lawyer representing the respondents right and and they work seamlessly side by side or on opposite sides. Again, we're all legal professionals, and together the two create a complete legal systems or legal services ecosystem that thrives in providing access to justice. And thank you so much for explaining a little more about how all the paralegals really play it very interesting role and, and how the regulation plays a role in all of that. So I I'd love to ask you if you could walk us through a little bit about the types of matters that you regularly handle and explain where maybe a paralegal would even be a best choice for clients. Yeah. So I'll jump in here as of actually as a paralegal, I'm so in the criminal realm, I do a lot of would say assault cases, mischief F cases, a lot of domestics. Those tend to be the the lion share. And in this system, the way in which we delineate as far as what paralegals can do is essentially any, any, any crime that has a penalty up to two years in prison for two years less a day, I should say, in jail, I should say over $5000 in fines ends up being designated summary. And then the summary designation, that's where paralegals can appear. Anything over 2 years of a jail time is considered to be indictable in nature and would require a lawyer. And so there are a large swath of what we call hybrid offences. And that essentially is where the Crown has the prerogative to elect either in summary or indictable, which again, and there's many factors that go into that decision. When Bill C-75 was passed back to 2019, it really expanded the scope of paralegals because it redesignated a large swath of offences to hybrid by making the jail term, you know, qualifier, 2 years less a day. And so it's been an absolute pleasure being able to serve my society and my community and providing legal services to individuals would not normally have access to justice in this way. And that I truly believe that the paralegal, well educated and well trained into regulated paralegal is the true answer to the access to justice question. Yeah, Just to add, actually just from earlier today, I was picking up a plaque from our trophy place. We have a golden gavel award that we give out to paralegal students. And the person just said, oh, you're a lawyer. You know, maybe you can help me with this. You know, I mean, I feel like all these conversations start randomly like this one of the people that was in the store there and then they were like, oh, we're gonna go to small claims court. And maybe it's really too expensive to get a lawyer. That's why I was sending my own demand letters earlier. I said, well, you know what, actually, I have a great referral for you. It's it's a paralegal, somebody who can provide you with, you know, strong advocacy, strong representation, but at a fraction of what it would cost for one of my lawyer colleagues to do small claims. Or more often, they may pay more money in legal fees than what they're looking to recover. Right. And as Justin alluded before, right, is that you got to find that balance because the alternative is self representation. And so I was always taught this quote that whoever represents themselves has a fool for a client. And certainly you don't want to go into those battles unarmed. And you can of a paralegal who's affordable that is well versed and especially in those areas where you don't see too many lawyers that they are going to be very successful for their clients. Amazing, yes, I actually had the opportunity to summer in the government and being in quite a few hearings for the Landlord Tenant Board, I got you to cross paths with quite a bit of, of paralegals there and, and learn a little bit more about their role. And honestly, most of the cases that I was at did the other side was, was very well represented by a paralegal and I was quite, quite intrigued. So I'm glad you learned a little more about this branch of the profession with you 2 today. And if I may ask you kind of plug it into that. Are there a few, you know, common misconceptions about paralegals that you know, questions that you get asked and and how do you address then in your work? So let me jump in here because I, I love this question and I have this term, I call it the Meghan Markle effect. Actually, I was just watching on my, my Instagram reels when Mike Ross first meets her and he's like, well, everyone just thinks of me as just a paralegal. And so a lot of people have this misconception because when they hear the word paralegal, they're thinking about Meghan Markle. They're as Rachel Zane on suits or other roles where, you know, again, as Justin said before, we're the only one that has fully licensed representation where paralegals, you know, British Columbia is almost there. We were talking to some US paralegals recently who are saying they're they're looking at Arizona and Utah is potentially places right now. Ontario has fully licensed paralegals. SO1 misconception is that paralegals are just legal assistance or law clerks and that they just do clerical work or support work or assist lawyers at law firms. Again, in Ontario, it's not the case at all. They're fully licensed, as I said before, they're fully regulated. They have education, they have experience and they work independently. So paralegals can open up their own firms. Paralegals can partner with each other, partner, partner with lawyers even. There's a lot of multidiscipline practices like that where you see lawyers working side by side with paralegals. And as you were asking before, they could take a matter from start to finish from the arrest in some cases or from the statement of claim being filed or from the traffic ticket, right? And they can go all the way through to the end. And so I think that misconception that paralegals are just a paralegal, as Justin had a nice article about, is there's a lot more than simply being assistance or support. So they can do everything a lawyer can do within their scope and do it very effectively. And I'll just add that that the idea that there's a lowering of a standard as far as legal representation is somewhat insulting to the individuals that work very hard to ensure that they are capable to do the level of justice that we are entrusted to do. I, I liken it a lot to the doctor nurse debate. And that's probably not much of A debate, but because nurses are actually well regarded and well perspective, but there are things that nurses do that doctors themselves are not essentially trained on or, or don't do so often that they are as good as, for instance, a nurse. A nurse practitioners can do a lot of things, including diagnosis for and, and, you know, surface level triage and sort of speak. So paralegals in my mind, tend, you know, the debate I'm hearing in BC as well is this idea that lawyers are pushing back saying, you know, well, licensing paralegals is not truly a granting access to justice is just lowering the standard of legal representation. And as I said before, it's it's, it's actually quite insulting to suggest that because like anything else, we're all people learning our various areas. And once you become an expert or first in your area, it doesn't to me matter whether you're a lawyer or paralegal. For instance, in provincial offences court, a landlord tenant board, There's lawyers who asked are you mean criminal? There's new new lawyers who asked me questions for about procedure or. Practices of the Court. That doesn't make me see them any less as far as their ability to, to advocate for the client. It's just, I've been doing it for 10 years. So I just tend to have more knowledge in that, in that field. And so that's another misconception that I just wanted to get out of the way that essentially just because you allow paralegals or in America, I think it's more of a second tier licensee idea, junior lawyer, I think they're trying to call it that you're lowering some sort of bar. And I, I just don't agree with that and I push back against that a lot. Thank you so much for bringing that up. I, I really like the, the idea of bringing the, the light to the subject and really sharing it out in the profession, the possibilities. And, and I think that it's even an interesting point where, you know, it's a different kind of education, It's a different really path to, to pursue. But I wanted to ask you a little bit JP and, and just think what made you choose, you know, to, to in JP's case to work and stay committed to paralegals and then justing in this work that you've done for quite a few years now? For me, I mean, again, I, I've had the benefit obviously went to law school and immediately after law school, I was teaching law in, in China actually. So I got the experience of teaching in a law school and then some of my students went on to be, I think, judges and lawyers there. And so I had this experience and I wanted to come back. And as you know, you either have to be a practitioner for with many years, you got to have a PhD mean the qualifications to, to work in law school or university here or a lot more than I was prepared to, especially after taking a few years out after law school. And so there's an opportunity to, to to get involved in a paralegal college for me again, as, as Justin said, the education is, is very practical, right? And that that's very different from law school. I was reading an article on on LinkedIn, I think his name is Aaron Buyer, who's writing on me. Did you do you really learn to be a lawyer in law school or do you learn it from sort of hands on training, you know, in your summers and your articling? I mean, I teach contract law, for example, in paralegal college. And we actually look through, you know, the terms of a contract and you would interpret it. But, you know, when I was in law school, I mean, contract law was, you know, Sandale and all these cases, but I don't think we ever actually broke down a contract, right? We were very focused on the theoretical. And so that's why when I, when, when people are comparing the, well, I went to university, I went to law school, I wrote the Lsats, I wrote all these exams, highly qualified. And then as, as you're in front of played off that paralegals because they don't have all that, that they're suddenly inferior or less qualified. I mean, you learn on the job, you learn in the experience. And that's why there are paralegal students of mine who are internationally trained lawyers, for example, those paralegals have been practicing for almost 2 decades that are well versed and could run circles around any lawyer that comes into their domain, right? And so I think it's very unfair to characterize education as as simply the be all and end all, right. And, and I think when you look at that, why I wanted to get involved was there was an opportunity really to, to grow and, and, and cultivate to students who are fresh into the profession or about to enter the profession and sort of give all that I can. And, and it's again, when you look at as a lawyer, often I'm asked, well, you're a lawyer, why are you helping paralegals? Why do you care about paralegals? But I think both professions can work side by side. I mean, that's the goal, right, is that we need more lawyers, younger lawyers and newly licensed lawyers to know that paralegals are competent there. They are educated, they're knowledgeable, and they can do work with you, especially in situations where it may have been referred under the. And so for me, I think I take up that cause as a lawyer in the paralegal space, one of the, you know, the few perhaps really strongly advocating because we need more lawyers like myself to recognize what paralegals bring to the table because who often many of my colleagues are, are pushing and raising sort of unfounded concerns that though they're watering down the profession. So you got to have allies that stand side-by-side proudly with paralegals. And that's why I'm doing it. And that's why I think working with Justin as the paralegal town hall, actually having a lawyer and paralegal side by side, shows exactly what this profession is capable. Of yeah, what he said times 2 for me but no seriously, I got into this. I always wanted to do something in the law since I was younger people, much like many lawyers, they're back story is everybody say you should become a lawyer because you love to argue or ask them any questions. And that's the same tag line for me much of my life. But then I decided to get into a lot more trouble than I should have, but youth. And thankfully, I didn't do everything in my power to ruin my life like I had tried to do with my teen years. And one day I was working, you know, continuous construction jobs or I was working in factories and I started doing the night shift and it was just the absolute worst. And I just truly felt like my potential was being wasted. And I checked the mail and lo and behold, there was a flyer there for a program called Second Career. I wanted the few government programs that work. And it was, it felt like it was tailored to me. But you know, is your name Justin? Do you hate your life right now? What do you wish you did better? And that's kind of like, Yup, Yup, Yup. Those things where I entered, I tried, I applied, and I just kept waiting for the shoe to fall and for me to kind of be blunted and stopped what I was trying to do. And it just kept going forward. And next thing you knew, I was licensed. And in that I have found great honor and this practice I've found hauling and it's about access to justice. And then through that calling and meeting, you know, John Paul and doing teaching, a second calling arose in me, which was to educate the profession. So those entering the field could be on the knowledge. Because one of the things that I like to emphasize is that feeling that you get once you understand something that aha moment or that relief. And if I can provide that to individuals as far as their understanding the procedure or process or how the area of law works, then I'm doing something far greater than just for myself, but for that person and whoever that person ends up representing. So that ends up having long lasting effects on society. And so at the access to justice component became a secondary, but just as important call for me. And the paralegal town hall allows for us to do that. As JP said, it's a lawyer and paralegal coming together and using common sense to solve issues and address areas that are lacking and and do so in a way that people tend to or or have I should say, thankfully, I humbly gravitate. Towards very interesting though. Thank you so much for for sharing a little more about your your journeys you get here too. But I wanted to ask you what challenges paralegals face in the profession today. And considering that you both have been in the profession for quite a bit now, I also wanted to ask you if if you've noticed over the years, if things you know got better, if there is a few things that are getting harder or most things are in a way being seen more positively. So what are what? What's your take on that? So, I mean, look, I started out 10 years ago. This profession is about 20 years old next year. Essentially I started at the halfway point. So I, I had a very, I would say important seat at this table where I got to see where had where it had come to and then where where it has gone now. And there's been a great shift in, you know, respect for paralegals, especially in the Criminal Court system where there's, they're not well represented. It took a long time to get, you know, enough respect. But that also takes showing up, being there, people knowing that you do the work and then doing the work well. So when people think back on or remember or reflect on the work you've done, it's in a positive way, which allows for the other paralegal behind you to be perceived that way as well. You know, and even when I first started Cook Story, a judge was like, essentially lawyers filed what's called the designation, which allows them to their client to designate them to appear to appear in court on their behalf when the matter is elected to be indictable. Because usually if it's a summary offence, individuals can just appear on the strength of what's called an agent or an agency of the court. And the the judge was mistaken in asserting that I didn't have the ability to appear on pursuant to the designation on behalf of council for the client. But at that point, I had a choice. I could either argue and become combative or I could assert myself and then respectfully, you know, bow to the king essentially. And I, I did the latter. And thankfully, about a week later, I happened to be before him again. And he stopped what he was doing middle of his trial and he apologized for being misinformed. And I thought to myself that day, it's a great lesson. And the cause and effect of our actions. If I were to have acted or responded in a way that was combative, he would never went home and double checked or did the homework and figured out that he was mistaken, which doesn't just benefit me, it benefits every paralegal after me and every judge that he speaks to afterwards will be informed of the exact same thing. So that. Cause and effect, that butterfly effect is very important. And so I've watched the, the growth of it being from feeling like an, and this is all speak to the first point of the question. I would find one of the hardest things is the imposter syndrome aspect of it. We all feel like the kid brother of the lawyer walking into court or the, the little, the little cousin or whatever it is. And I'm here to help individuals find their and Orient themselves in a way that they no longer have that feeling of second guessing themselves or wondering if they belong here. Because the answer is that they do belong here and they should not second guess themselves. And the imposter syndrome is normal. Even lawyers sometimes get it. And I would say more often than sometimes, probably a lot more times than many would admit. But paralegals just need to get over the fact that the, the old paralegals that build what they built, the new era paralegals are doing 4 year programs, for instance, at Humber or our undergraduates or are using this as a way to get their, the their bearings before they enter law school. So it's a whole different caliber of paralegal entering the fray now and then. That's exactly who we represent. And again, I think the biggest challenge still remains public awareness. As I said before, many people still don't fully understand when and why they should hire a paralegal compared to a lawyer. And many lawyers themselves don't necessarily understand what paralegals can do right. And and so the challenger there and, and as Justin said, there's been certainly strives me it's made over the last 10 years that he's been in the profession. And we think that that gap is getting smaller and smaller where you realize, again, these are highly educated, highly trained individuals. And so the best strategy forward to overcome this is continuing education, further collaboration between legal professionals and more public outreach, right? I mean, you know, you should see more awareness of what paralegals can do. Or is this as we have a phrase that there's a paralegal for them? Because a lot of lawyers who've been practicing for 25 years or 30 years, right? When they hear the word paralegal, they think of the uneducated. I don't no experience. I mean, back then, our illegals could just open up a business and start representing people on traffic tickets with no education, no insurance, no real experience. And that would certainly come a long way in two decades from that and continuing to build on that and will only break down further barriers for successful paralegals like Mr. Rochester here and others to continue to move the profession forward. Amazing, thank you for sharing those. For those interested in becoming paralegals, what are some of the skills or experiences that you think are most important to succeed in this profession? I would say communication is huge, right? I mean, the number one complaint of lawyers and paralegals is communication, right? It's not about competence, it's not about not knowing any slaw or I mean AI generated hallucinatory law or whatever it may be. It's about communication. And so it being able to explain these complex legal ideas clearly to clients is, is going to potential rates of attention to detail, having strong advocacy skills, empathy, right? I mean, it's something, you know, be trauma informed, paralleling or trauma informed lawyering, right, are also critical because many clients are going through these stressful situations when they seek legal help. And so you're, you're putting on a bunch of different things, right? You're putting on the legal advocate, you're putting on the communications, not there, you're putting the social worker and sometimes. And so you got to be able to do all of that. And, and the sort of biggest take away there is how you communicate that, the right tone, the right words, the right mix of all of that. So you are firm but fair and effective in getting the job done for your. Clients and I'll just, I mean everything, JP said. Exactly right, but I would say at the at the crux of all that, at the top of all that is the idea of just being mature, taking yourself seriously. One of the things I try to impart of my students is the minute you start taking yourself seriously, the more the better the chance of success is. This is a serious endeavor. It's a people based service. Individuals are paying you and relying on you. I've urged multiple times in their life. And it doesn't matter if it's a small claims matter because if somebody loses, they could not regain damages that they have incurred or B be subject to damages to be paid. And that's thousands and thousands of dollars which could financially ruin them. If the landlord intended matter, somebody could be the subject of an eviction or somebody could not get their home back who put a lot of money into it on the other end of the landlord represented for the landlord for criminal. I think this makes it pretty obvious. So you just always in my mind need to remember that this is a profession that you are entering A licensed profession and one that is unique in the world. It's it's one of those no pressure, right? In reality, we really are the testing ground. We are the Guinea pigs for this, for this, this thing called the experiment of paralegals. Much, much appreciated learning a little bit more about what you, you'd considered good skills. And it's interesting because I feel like in many ways it's, it's very similar to what you know, someone who's going through law school would need to succeed. So it makes a lot of sense. And looking ahead, I'm, I'm curious, how do you see the, the role of paralegals evolving maybe here in Ontario where you already have those privileges in other areas as you mentioned U.S. states are are possibly going to test it out. So over the next 5-10 years and maybe what excites you most about this future? Yeah, I mean, as far like people don't realize in a lot of paralegals don't realize the actual scope of our scope, it's actually quite well represented. And I think Ontario has a nice balance here. Sure, a few things could be refined, a few things could be worked on and a few minor expansions I would say maybe in the civil putting it up to $100,000 appropriate to me, certain things in criminal just like minor tweaks. I, I think after that, I think we are the standard model. It makes sense that we have we operate within the scope that we have currently. I think it's well representative of the level of training and, and, and education that we get as far as this idea, this experiment spreading across the globe. I think the proofs in the pudding. I just did a, a discussion with the South Korean think tank where I was able to open their eyes to this idea. And as long as there's people like John Paul yourself, for instance, myself, we're out here advocating or, or giving a platform for the accuracy of, of the idea of this, of paralegal experiment. I feel like the more the world will will benefit because again, the justice system is one of the strongest pillars of a society. When the justice system fault falters, that pillar falters. And it's usually one of the first things to go when it's society is crumbling. And I don't, I'm not trying to be dramatic here. It's, it's, it's, it's a fact, it's history. It's, you just have to look it up. So I find that paralegals answer a question that has been asked for a long time. And that is, how can the common man have access and, and, and have fair justice and, and I think the paralegal is the answer to that. Right. And to add to that, I mean, one of our colleagues, Sawyer Camp had this post a few days ago that you know, the word paralegal comes from the Greek para meaning beside, right. It's not about replacement, it's not about dilution. It's a it means operating alongside. And I think over the next 5 to 10 years in Ontario, you're going to have again, more and more lawyers like yourself. You're almost, they're getting called Claudio so excited for you. But they're they're going to see that they are working in a legal landscape where there are paralegals and there are lawyers both on opposite sides are on the same side assisting clients at providing legal services. And we're going to also see other jurisdictions like in BC, like in Alberta, like in in various U.S. states and around the world, right? I mean, you know, this podcast is studying law around the world, right? I mean, people are going to see, well, can we find a way to get from university to providing legal services where it's not an 8910 year process where it's very expensive and the average person can't afford that, You know, in in different places around the world. When I was in high school, if you want it to be for me was Johnny Cochran, the OJ Simpson trial. But if you wanted to be a lawyer, right, you had to go to university, You took a political science program and then then you did law school and articling. And you know, it's an 8-9 year commitment. But you know, when I go and talk to high school students, I say, well, what about being a paralegal, right? I mean, you could go to a program and, and once two years and if you have those those skills, and then you learn more about the law and you develop that, you could be there in as little as two years, right? I mean, in terms of finishing a program, asking your licensing exams and then learning on the job under we have a coach and advisor network, for example, with the loss if I do that, that's where you're going to learn those skills, right? And so the future again, is paralegals are going to continue to grow. The legal system is focused on access to justice, and paralegals have key role in continue and will continue to pay that key role in making those legal services approachable and affordable. And what really excites me is, like Justin and myself, we have this collaboration between lawyers and paralegals and we'll build that ecosystem that's going to work better for the public so you can have everything and and be able to afford it. It's not dilution, it's working side-by-side. Fantastic. I wanted to thank you both for taking the time to being in the podcast today and for sharing very, very informative information of really the importance of paralegals should profession and, and really what you do and and how you go about it. I really appreciate you taking the time. Perfect. Thank you so much, Claudia, for having us. It was, it's always great. It's nice to be able to talk and and not just ask questions as well. And I think it's really important that you know, all your listeners and, and those around the world, right? I mean, they may see that there is a future. Where you could have. Paralegals providing legal services where ever again, as long as you're getting the the proper training and the education like we have here in Ontario, I think the Sky's the limit. And I'm really proud to to be able to work alongside exceptional people in the profession like Mr. Rochester and and many others. And I thank you again for taking the time to chat. With us today, and I'll echo my friends sentiment there, obviously, it's an honor and a privilege to work with alongside Mr. Rodriguez as we traverse this landscape and try to be essentially a beacon for the idea of the acceptance and full immersion of paralegals into the legal field. But also yourself, Claudio. I think things like this, these types of podcasts, these types of discussions are important because the law is what society has. That's the way it protects itself from the government. That's the way it protects itself from collapse and the rule of law is quite important and platforms like yourself that give voice to these discussions are a vital for that endeavor. So thank you, Sir, for having us. Absolutely. Just wanted to say for all any paralegals or paralegal students or any legal professionals interested that be sure to check out the paralegal town hall at the theparalegaltownhall.ca there. And we're very happy to provide services and help build on the knowledge and the CD's and and events and everything that we're doing.