Hidden Loyalties, the Peacock Metaphor, and Why Lawyers Feel Stuck with Lora McInturf

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. This episode is proudly sponsored by The Inner Advocate, With Laura McInturf, supporting lawyers and other business leaders around the world to transform important aspects of their work, to realize more impact in their careers, and feel more fulfilled in life. You worked so hard to get this far in the legal profession, but now you're facing a challenge that you cannot ignore. Is this what it all came down to? I don't like some aspects of this career. How do I manage this difficult person or complex set of circumstances? Should I stay where I am? Go somewhere else? Or leave the legal profession altogether? And the biggest question, what do I actually want from my career, from my life? Enter Laura McInturf, a former international lawyer turned executive coach who has faced these questions herself, as well as worked with hundreds of lawyers and other business leaders from over 55 countries on the same questions. She helps lawyers like you and me to cut through the confusion And complexity and work through the real challenge. Is it time for a career transition? Is it a leadership challenge? Is it about work-life integration? Is it just dreading Mondays? If you're feeling stuck in something, then connect with Laura McInturf on LinkedIn or visit theinneradvocate.com and book an exploratory call. It's time to stop ruminating and start navigating your way forward. Today, I'm having the honor once again to receive and welcome back Laura McInturf. Thank you so much for making the time to be here with us today, Laura. Thanks for having me again, Cláudio. I'm excited, especially about this topic. Absolutely. I'm very excited for today's conversation as well. She's mentored lawyers in over 50 countries. And Laura, for those who are maybe listening to this episode as their first contact with the podcast, Could you just do a brief introduction as well? Sure. So like you said, my name is Laura McInturf and I'm the founder of The Inner Advocate. And I'm currently an American living in Germany here. So I'm qualified in the US, in Ohio. And then I also, while I was in Germany, qualified to be a solicitor of England and Wales. I've converted into coaching as my full-time practice. And the reason why that happened is, is I married someone who took some expat assignments around the world. And, and I know, Claudia, you and I connected about being in Canada because that was one of our assignments at one point. But I've also been in China and we even returned to the US for part of the time. But it made it really difficult to practice the law because you can't jump legal jurisdictions that easily. And it was, I think, 4 jurisdictions in 6 years. So I thought, oh my gosh, my legal career is over, which it was in a way. But my career wasn't over. I just shifted into coaching and I have been doing it ever since. I love it. I work with lawyers, not only lawyers, I work with also executives and other sort of, let's say, rising stars in the corporate world. And I also mentor and supervise other lawyer coaches. So I'm deep into this work and I do it virtually. And that's why I get to work with so many people around the world. So, you know, if you're a lawyer abroad or thinking about it, there's so many opportunities to sort of Straddle many jurisdictions. Why do so many lawyers feel stuck even when their career looks successful on paper? And how would you define hidden loyalties in this context? What kind of things are lawyers usually loyal to, maybe even without realizing it? Yeah. So what's at the root of feeling stuck can, can obviously be a number of things. Maybe you just were never really all in on your legal career, or, or maybe you're really good at a particular area of the law, but you don't enjoy it anymore. Or maybe you're tired of certain people and conflict, or maybe you've built a life that That requires a certain financial income and it would just be difficult to replicate. So there's just examples of where you, you know, why you could get stuck. But as we're talking about today, hidden loyalties, it is a pattern that I see across the legal profession in different jurisdictions where really capable people can't make a career change even though it logically makes sense to them. So you may have thought it through, maybe even done some research, have a plan, even talk to important people in your life. But you don't make the move. And the gap is between thinking and acting, right? So this is where a hidden loyalty can be operating. Okay, but what's a hidden loyalty? So a hidden loyalty or hidden loyalties are our unconscious commitments that we keep in our relationships to people, groups, and systems. And these commitments were important to us at some point in the past because they connected us to our survival, to our belonging, a sense of self, maybe even love. And in this area of coaching that I do, it's, it's called Constellations and Systems Work. And what we do is acknowledge that every significant group that we've belonged with or in, it leaves traces in us. And a common metaphor in this work is, um, the peacock and its tail. So each of us is like a peacock and everyone in every system that we've been a member in, it's a feather in the tail that we carry with us everywhere we go in our work or in our lives. And the loyalties that arise from these group experiences can become problematic when we're unaware of them. And then they prevent us from having the freedom to choose what we actually want now. And an important side note, um, for those who, who are listening, and perhaps there's some out there who are into mindset work or limiting belief work, and that work locates the pattern inside the individual. And what systems or constellations work does is locates the pattern inside the relationships and the group history of the person. So it's not strictly just cognitive work, like shifting to a different belief, but it's more relational. And I think there are some reasons why lawyers are especially vulnerable to certain hidden loyalties. So the legal profession has developed, obviously, its own complex system of rules that govern how we belong, how we're required to belong, what's included, what's excluded, the hierarchy, flow of authority, all of those things. And some of the rules are explicit and some aren't. But together, they form a kind of coherent, longstanding system. that offers sort of order, predictability, and pretty clear conditions for membership. And so for anyone who's been searching for a stable system to belong to, whether or not that search was conscious, the legal profession can fill that void. And another point around this, loyalty and commitment are also explicit, explicitly valued in the system of the legal profession. So our education emphasizes duty, obligation, fidelity to our clients, to the law, and to the profession. And for people whose values of loyalty and commitment were already running deep in them, entering into the profession can kind of feel like coming home. And that their values and the professional values then kind of merge. And over time, our professional identity and our personal identity sort of become the same thing. So it's not, I, you wouldn't say, I don't, I don't do legal work, right? You would say, that's not how I would describe myself as someone who does legal work. You would say, I am a lawyer, or I'm an immigration lawyer, or I'm an M&A lawyer. So it becomes kind of a statement of being. When you consider changing something about that, It doesn't really feel like a career change. It kind of feels like losing yourself. So those are some examples I think are useful, but we'll talk about more examples here, I'm sure. I'm thinking here, for example, you know, there's lots of relationships where this is working well, right? People have those hidden loyalties, but they still enjoy their career. They're still maybe at a place that they don't feel, you know, miserable or anything like that. But I'm also thinking about a group of people who might, who might be feeling, you know, a great feeling of gratitude and can't let go of a situation because of that. We talk about international lawyers a lot. people from a few different backgrounds and countries have a really, a really hard time going through this transition, right, to a new jurisdiction. So once you arrive at that spot, sometimes it can be hard as well to make a transition to parallel or lateral into another firm because you, you might feel that that first environment just opened the doors for you, gave you your first opportunity. So I'm curious, I'd love to hear more examples of you know, from your work where lawyers were stuck because of these hidden loyalties and what that looked like both in their day-to-day, but also in their decision-making? Yeah. So signs that something is stuck, whether or not it's a hidden loyalty, right? There's a couple of different ways to look at it. One is sort of the emotional and physical stuff. So like if you have a knot in your stomach or you're shallow breathing or displaced anger. Maybe feeling resigned or flat or like lacking the joy around things you used to love, heaviness or a sense of dread, feeling guilty. Those are kind of sort of, let's say, emotional and physical signs. Signs where you might show up in your thinking would be like repeating the same thoughts without really coming to a conclusion or reaching a resolution or a decision. It's not uncommon for lawyers who feel stuck to have fantasies about something external forcing their decision. A more specific thought example would be like, I don't understand why this keeps happening. That's a very common one. But the clearest sign in the work I do in coaching around hidden loyalties is when someone says, I know I wanna change, but I can't seem to do it. So the logical mind knows what to do, but the rest of the person, like their body, their emotions, their energy, their spirit even, they resist the movement. So it could be a sign that something subconsciously is holding onto a loyalty somewhere. And maybe it is from your past job. It could be from your past culture. It doesn't, we don't know, right? We just, it can just be a sign that something is there. So, some other examples where I've seen it, where lawyers have felt stuck, and maybe this isn't so much about moving countries in particular, but you can draw similar conclusions. So, like having very strong or fixed views about the right or wrong way to succeed as a lawyer. So, this can be a group's rules absorbed into somebody's personal conviction, right? Or let's say difficulty working with people from other teams. At a particular hierarchy level or from different backgrounds or cultures. This can be a carryover from the rules from an earlier group or system. Another example could be like recreating or like repeatedly throughout your career certain, let's say, challenging dynamics with managers, clients, organizations. So this could be an old group or system pattern running on autopilot. Another one could be— this one shows up actually quite a lot with lawyers because As we all go through our careers, we hope to progress. So sometimes people have difficulty inhabiting the authority of a promoted role or a role in a new place. And this could be loyalty to the previous position, right? So same thing, moving countries, like, I just, I like the old way I worked, or I like that environment and the new one, struggling to fit in with it. Or it could be the system that you're joining is trying to bring back the person who held the role before. So the system is resisting you, but it's not you. It's the change in, in, in the system that, that was, let's say, flowing before. And now you show up and you somehow, you know, create a change in the environment and the system resists you. So those are examples that, although maybe not about moving around the world, they can show up in moving around the world, right? Because you're in a new role or you're repeating a dynamic or, or Um, you have a particular view about how the legal profession should be, and then, you know, where you go is, is not the same. I can't help but think a little bit about, you know, what's a hidden loyalty versus fear of the new, or, you know, the, the sense of stability. You're, you're better off with a known devil than, you know, with the, with the unknown one. How much of this is really about your identity or the system as you're explaining it? than a career choice? And why is it so hard for lawyers to question an identity they spent years building through education, through efforts, through sacrifice, long hours? Yeah. So, I said it before, but I think it's worth bringing it back that for a lot of lawyers, the legal profession, it doesn't just provide us with a job. It provides us with a self. It's sort of a recognized place to be in the world or a way to be introduced or be seen. And identity isn't built overnight for anybody. It's kind of conferred through system or systems over the years and then confirmed by other people in the system. And then it absorbed into you. So it starts to feel foundational. And by the time you question aspects of your career, you might've spent a decade or decades or more, not only doing the work and sacrificing for it, but becoming it. And the difficulty, of course, is, is changing. It's proportionate to what you've invested. And it's not just the time and effort, but it's the sense of self that the system conferred on you. And so for those who came from backgrounds where belonging felt conditional or identity felt unstable, the legal profession can really fill a gap. So the hierarchy, the clear metrics like billables, defined roles, all of that provides an order that perhaps didn't exist before for some people. And this is why the loyalty can run so deep for some and why it can be so hard to examine. So it really— can kind of protect us from having to face the possibility that it hasn't really fit us for a while or maybe ever. And so when the question comes, is this, is this still right for me? Even if it's just a role versus, you know, leaving it professional altogether, it doesn't feel like a career question. It feels existential. So if I'm not this, then what am I? And that question is terrifying enough for some people that they would rather stay somewhere that no longer fits than face the reality that there may not be an immediately clear alternative yet. What are some of the early signs? What are some Things that people tend to avoid admitting to themselves in this kind of situation. You want to change, but you're not able to make the change, and that's pretty— a pretty good sign that something unconscious is in charge and you're not really freely making a choice anymore. How does it show up on the ground? And one is sort of basic, basic tasks for change are resisted. So a really good example is, you know, you need to text somebody to set up a conversation and then you don't do it, or You know you need to pull up your CV on your computer, but oh, you can't find it and you give up real quickly. Or you could Google a question, you don't Google it, you do something else, right? Get distracted. Or you could sit down and write a list of steps because it's kind of obvious what kind of things you need to do when you start thinking about making a change and you just don't find the time or you can't find the paper or the pencil. These are like sort of basic things, but also you can actively prepare, but you do it as a way to avoid. So like you keep researching and, and, and And researching instead of making the decision or taking action. One of my favorites that I personally do a lot is I set a deadline for myself and then I keep moving it. That's how I know that I'm— something subconscious is at work. Or like you tell yourself you're going to address, address something after a specific milestone. Like, I don't know, like a case or closing or holiday or whatever. And then the milestone comes and goes and then you find a new milestone. It's these sort of games that you're playing internally to avoid doing the thing, right? Another one that comes up A lot. Social or relational signals. It's relational. It's in respect of other people. So clues could be that you, you keep outsourcing your decision to what, how other, how you would imagine other people would react. So like, what would X family member think? Or someone else from the past or present, what would they think if I did this? Or you're not able to make conversations with people about it, like especially people who are important to you. And instead you're more honest with Strangers or acquaintances. That's a really common one too. I mentioned before sort of indications of thought patterns, like, like swirling around in your brain, like pros and cons, pros and cons, and then you never reach a decision to sort of trying to outsource the decision, like hoping an external force will make the choice. Another good one is you've already decided privately, but you're waiting for permission from an unknown source. And a lot of people will show up to coaching and ask me for permission. It's incredible. And I always give it back to them. What's important to you about what I think? And it's sort of a realization. What am I doing here? Like, who is this woman? They of course get to know me through the work, but like, why are they giving that authority to me? So those are some examples of, of, of what, what could be, you know, let's say day-to-day signs about how it shows up. And I suspect that it is more common among lawyers than other people, although of course other people are doing these kinds of things too, to avoid Avoid change. In your practice, are there some things that usually surprise people when they move jurisdictions and realize that their expectations do not translate? Thinking specifically about this context of going from one place to another. There's a group of lawyers who will move jurisdictions and they will basically know that their intention is to become a lawyer again, and they will go through all the processes that they need to do in order to get that credential or to, you know, go back to the status quo, so to say. And then there's another group that will adapt, some happily, some not so happily, but they will go into another role too. It's so, it's not just lawyers to lawyers or lawyers to other roles and then how other people perceive us. It's, it's a constant dynamic about what group were you in? What group have you moved to? What are the rules of the group you left? What are the groups that you've joined? What do people perceive? I mean, it's a very obviously complex relational thing. And to dig a little deeper into that, one way to do that is to ask, well, what were the rules of belonging in each of these groups I've been in? And what happened to people who broke those rules? And what did it cost them? Right? So you can also see when someone leaves the legal profession or takes a break, it is a very heartfelt outpouring about that experience. Yeah. And you can also see, I have felt this experience as a coach, like, oh, if you're not a lawyer anymore, who are you to coach? It's like you've sort of, you broke away from the club. Like, How could you do that? And you can kind of feel in between the lines, right? Like, oh, whose group are you in now? And can, can we count on you to be loyal to us? And also why some people are very adamant about, let's say, if they are in the legal profession, hiring someone who's had a legal background. You get it. You get the rules of the group, right? I know you and I are both lawyers outside of our home jurisdictions, but it, it, how it shows up for everybody is, is so nuanced. I mean, I feel like it's obvious, like, oh, when you change countries, of course that's gonna be different, right? Of course. Different culture, different language, different, yeah, all sorts of things, right? But at, at the, let's say, more granular level in the, in the legal profession, we're, as I said before, layered with so many other experiences and groups and what that means for us. So, for example, choosing a practice area that served the community or background that you come from is an example of a loyalty that shows up through your professional choice. Another one, being the first in your family to achieve a professional status and then unconsciously limiting your success. And that's remaining loyal to the people behind you who couldn't go as far. Or working relentlessly not to burn out and then leads to burnout. And this could indicate like a systems-level rule that we're never going to return to an earlier state of lack or insecurity. So you can see it in different offices. The more people that you are exposed to in the legal profession, different offices have different, let's say, rules about what's required. So, and it stems from sort of the group dynamic that has been built up over years. Another one, always representing the underdog. Yeah, this could be loyalty to family or a cultural narrative. Another one, replicating in professional relationships dynamics from a previous system. So like extreme deference to authority, not talking about your success. That one shows up a lot on LinkedIn, right? I don't like people who brag. And then there's the people who are a success, right? There's some group rule in there speaking through that person. Avoiding conflict, very typical one. Particular communication patterns. So even I'm showing up today and talking in a certain way, and I have been sort of through groups come to this way of expressing myself, right? And I can even say, because I live in Germany now, some of the patterns of how people communicate and how, you know, they're a little bit more direct here, I have become more direct because it's a sort of a way of belonging in the culture where I am, right? Another one would be becoming a lawyer because it was a family profession. So of course that's loyalty to a family system. And another one that I see a lot A lot of people will excel through formal education, of course, because we're lawyers and that's how we got to where we are, and then struggle when, when career progression stops following clear steps. So you may have internalized the educational system sort of tick-the-box approach towards an award without recognizing that the legal profession follows different rules. So I see that a lot in coaching, people showing up and like, I don't understand what happened. Like, I was just doing my job and I didn't get the promotion or I didn't whatever, right? And then it's like, well, Unlike in school where, you know, you do the task and you get the A or the 1, in your career, it's, it's not like that. It's a different formula or set of rules. When you move across jurisdictions, of course, the rules that you've internalized from whatever groups, but in particular legal profession, about hierarchy, measures of success and belonging or whatever, they, they just really may not transfer. And so, for example, when I moved from the US to a law firm in Germany, I was confronted with this point. Of course, it's obvious, different country, different culture. But some of what I assumed about what was universal legal profession truths, they turned out to be local system logic about practicing the law. And that was very frustrating for me. And I wasn't working with a coach, but as a coach now, what I would say is when the invisible becomes visible like that, it really creates a rare opportunity in your career to choose consciously how you're going to be as a lawyer, obviously given what the new system is asking. And what can you say, let's say grow beyond from the old rules. You don't have to move around the world to have this experience, of course. And it can happen, you know, wherever you make a change. And just to notice for yourself, you know, if you change teams, you change employers, whatever you do, it's just noticing, okay, I'm in a new system. And there are probably different rules at play here. And, and the discomfort you feel, it might not be that you just don't have language for it yet. Like we, they do things differently here, but I thought that's not how that was supposed to be done. And to just stay with that because yeah, it's just adopting to a new, a new system. I'm picturing somebody who's a listener here and who might be, you know, driving to work right now. And they're like, wow, I've been meaning to make a change. I just heard Laura right now, my head, you know, is, is kind of reliving all these experiences that we're naming here, you know, once, once you realize that there is a lot of hidden loyalties that might be keeping you from making a change that you genuinely wanted, or to explore, explore a passion within or without the profession, maybe what does the first step might look like? How can someone begin to maybe loosen that loyalty without feeling like they're losing themselves? So the hint is that, you know, you want to make a change, but But you don't understand why you're not doing it yet. And so there's 2 questions that I would suggest you ask yourself. One is, who could be disappointed if I made the change I'm considering? And the second one is, what does staying where I am say about who I believe myself to be? And there are going to be a lot of people who I hope think about those questions, but they're like, I still don't feel ready to change. And the, the, the, the The challenge that I give here is just to name one, one hidden loyalty that might be operating in your career, just one. Write it down. Don't judge it. Don't try to solve it. It's just see it, see it. And then try saying out loud something like, I might be loyal to something here that no longer fits who I am or what I want to be doing. And I don't know how to move through that yet. So a big part of this is just to see it and just to acknowledge that this isn't easy. Your loyalties have contributed to who you are. That's a beautiful thing, right? Acknowledge those people, those groups, Those systems from the past. And once you can see who and what you're loyal to, then you get to choose whether and how you continue to honor those loyalties. A common first response I see in my coaching a lot when someone uncovers a hidden loyalty is actually a lot of compassion and some emotion just to see how long that one loyalty, or perhaps more loyalties, has been running behind the scenes in their career and lives. without being aware of it. It's all of us, right? To have some sort of acknowledgement and normalization that this is, this is how we are as people. Relationships are, are how we live and thrive and survive and like, okay, but, but to see, okay, that's been going on a long time. And, and is that still serving me? Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing those, Laura. And to, to wrap up today's episode, I wanted to ask you, what do most people misunderstand about freedom? Yeah, I love this question because for a lot of people, freedom is really what they want. There are many other things that they say first, like, I want to progress in my career, I want to make more money, and then it ultimately comes to, and what does all that give you? Well, I want to feel more free, or I want to feel at peace. Generally, I get the sense that people believe that when we talk about feeling more free in our careers, that we're going to always be feeling calm or always be feeling peaceful. And freedom can include those things. But freedom also includes facing things that are difficult, such as feeling guilty as you expand beyond a loyalty that you've held for a long time, or maybe grieving that version of yourself that a system seemed to assign you. So feeling stuck may be a sign that you're loyal and deeply and powerfully loyal to important people and relationships, groups, and systems, and they formed you along the way. And loyalties and belonging are really like at the core of being human. And freedom is not the absence of these things. Freedom here is about the ability to choose. Which loyalties do you keep and which do you respectfully expand beyond? And I'm gonna add one more question because I think it, if you forget the other 2, then go with this one. What am I protecting by staying where I am and what is that costing me? So, and as we come to the end here, when we raise our awareness about ourselves and who we want to be in the world, then we shift from this sort of hidden automatic reaction, lack of action place to a conscious choice. And freedom includes having a choice. So if you're looking for more freedom in your career or life, contact me because that's a part of what coaching is about. And of course, there are many wonderful lawyer coaches. I'll put a shout out for all of them too, because I know them and work with them. If you just feel stuck in your career, maybe it's not about a hidden loyalty. Reach out to one of us because we have, of course, been there. And we have been there. And we also, it is now our profession and our job to work with All of these, the human side of choice and making a change. And you don't have to do it alone. And it's great that you have probably many wonderful colleagues, friends, family, and so on who would love to tell you how to do it, right? But they're biased and they are invested in your choices and a coach isn't. And we, and we do our best to come non-judgmentally and neutrally to support you with what you want. And for a lot of us to have that kind of conversation, it can be a real first, like someone who's just believing in you that you can do it and to work with you through it. So, definitely reach out to me or, or another coaching colleague if, if, if you feel like something I talked about today or our last conversation could be, could be a part of what's going on for, for what you're hoping to, to, to get out of your career and life. Amazing. I really appreciate you making the time to, to come and share these thoughts here in the podcast. And, and thank you all for listening to this wonderful conversation. Thank you, Claudio. This episode is proudly sponsored by The Inner Advocate with Laura McInturf, supporting lawyers and other business leaders around the world to transform important aspects of their work, to realize more impact in their careers, and feel more fulfilled in life. You worked so hard to get this far in the legal profession, but now you're facing a challenge that you cannot ignore. Is this what it all came down to? I don't like some aspects of this career. How do I manage this difficult person or complex set of circumstances? Should I stay where I am? Go somewhere else? Or leave the legal profession altogether? And the biggest question: What do I actually want from my career? From my life? Enter Laura McInturf, a former international lawyer turned executive coach. Who has faced these questions herself, as well as worked with hundreds of lawyers and other business leaders from over 55 countries on the same questions. She helps lawyers like you and me to cut through the confusion and complexity and work through the real challenge. Is it time for a career transition? Is it a leadership challenge? Is it about work-life integration? Is it just dreading Mondays? If you're feeling stuck in something, then connect with Laura McInturf on LinkedIn or visit TheInnerAdvocate.com and book an exploratory call. It's time to stop ruminating and start navigating your way forward.