Building Your Ship, Authentic Relationships, and the Science of Luck with Dr. Tina Seelig

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. I talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I have the privilege of welcoming Dr. Tina Sillig to the podcast. She's an author, she's an executive director of the Knight-Hennessy Scholars Program at Stanford and I'm so excited to have her here today and chat a little bit more about luck and luck in legal careers. Thank you so much for making the time and being here this evening, Dr. Sillig. Great. Thank you so much. And to start our podcast, I'd love to hear a little bit more, you know, about your story and your book. Many of our audience here are law students and young lawyers and their thought that success comes from careful planning, hard work. This is a profession where we really learn to be risk-averse and maybe follow a very structured path. And in your new book, which I was so happy to read, you introduce a different way of thinking about opportunities and success that can apply to any kind of career. So for listeners who might not be very familiar with your work, how would you describe, you know, yourself and also the central idea behind your book? Great. Thank you so much for asking. It's really a joy to talk to you. And as I mentioned earlier, the world of law is really, really a mystery to me. And so I am so thrilled to be able to figure out how we can connect our worlds together. I'm actually a neuroscientist by training. I'm a scientist, but I went out into the world and did lots of different things and came back to Stanford about 25 years ago to teach entrepreneurship and innovation and creativity. And I've written a whole bunch of books about creative problem solving, eventually leading to writing this recent book, which is called What I Wish I Knew About Luck. And the reason I wrote this book is that I see so many people, I would say lawyers included, who walk right by opportunities that are right in front of them. I see them, it's as if they're walking by gold coins that are sitting on the floor or sitting on the table, and I see them walk right by them. And I'm trying to give people the lens to look at the world as opportunity rich, full of possibilities and to see what they can do actively every single day to become luckier. And that basically means, how do they end up getting closer and closer to the goals that they actually have for themselves? That's beautiful. I really appreciate that. I also wanted to mention to the audience that there's another incredible book that you wrote called What I Wish I Knew When I Was 20. I'm getting close to my 30s, but I'm very glad I got to read this book and just understand a few of the concepts that you bring there. So recommending it to everyone, we'll definitely have the links on the show notes here. But going on in the legal education point here, for us lawyers going to law school, it often really emphasizes the certainty. So we learn how to analyze precedent, to identify the rules, to try to really predict outcomes. But careers, they rarely unfold according to that perfect planned script. And I know that you, Tina, have a very, very interesting career yourself. You just mentioned how you are trained in the sciences and are a neuroscientist. So many other very interesting topics. I know that you've had your own companies as well over the years. And one of the most memorable ideas in the book is this analogy that you make about the wind, the sail, the crew, the ship. Could you explain to us a little bit about this framework and discuss how the young professionals could prepare for uncertainty in their careers, legal or not? Thank you. So first, it's really important to distinguish between fortune and luck. And we often use those terms interchangeably, but you need to think of them as something actually very distinct and different. Fortune is the things that happen to you. Luck is something over which you have much more control. It doesn't mean you have full control, but you have much more agency in bringing luck about, good or bad luck, by the way. But fortune is things that are out of your control. You don't control who your parents are. You don't control what the weather was like. You don't control all sorts of things on the world stage. But every single day, there are things that you do control. The things that you can control are often invisible. They're powerful, but they're invisible. They're like the wind. And therefore, you need to build a sail to catch them. And so this is where the analogy comes from, is that in order to catch the winds of luck, you need to build your ship, you need to recruit your crew, and you need to hoist your sail. And so this book basically parses all of those, looks at all of them very close up to see what you can do. Diving in just a little bit more deeply, the building the ship can be compared to the quote that we often hear, fortune favors the prepared mind. So it's about all the things you need to do to prepare before you even hoist your sail. That is your prepared mind. Then the idea is that most luck comes through other people. It's not something that happens in isolation, therefore you need to recruit your crew. And what are all the things you do to bring other people along? And third is how do you hoist the sail? What are the things you do every single day to essentially catch those winds of luck that are blowing by? Amazing. Tina, being a professor and working with students for so many years, just like we see in the legal scenario, a lot of people feel a lot of pressure to make the right decision early, to start their career where they really want to end it in a way. So a lot of lawyers feel even this pressure to choose the practice area that they will want to do for the rest of their careers. They worry about choosing the right school, the right employer, the right practice, believing that in a way, if you do a wrong move early on, that can really affect your career, your optionality. And the more I speak with people here in the podcast, I find that many very successful lawyers had no idea where they would end up when they were first starting. How has your journey shaped your views about career planning? And maybe what would you say to someone who feels that pressure to follow a single path? Yeah. So it's really funny because I'll sometimes get students who show up in my office and they've got their 40-year plan. And I just want to pull my hair out because most of those interesting people you will meet are people who have pivoted many times in their career. If you ask them at the end, if they ever imagined they would be doing what they're doing then, they would say, wow, I'm completely delighted, but just as surprised because opportunities present themselves. I mean, think about it. The world is changing so quickly that it's impossible to imagine the possibilities and the opportunities are going to be around in a few years. So you need to keep your, keep your sail open, keep your, your eyes open, be willing to look for opportunities that you didn't even imagine before. I'm a big believer that uncertainty is a huge gift. Nobody would actually want a recipe for their life. I mean, really and truly, would you want to be given a script for your whole life? Probably not. So the cost of that is uncertainty, but it also means it's, it's possibility. The, I had a young woman in my office earlier who just finished her residency in surgery, is finishing a PhD and is saying, you know what, I want to throw it up in the air and do something different. Right there. But nothing you learn is wasted because the skills you gain in every one of these situations is going to compound over time. And one of the things I often tell my students, especially when they're young and they're just getting out of school, is that the things that are going to be on their resume, the next few jobs won't even be there in a few years. Look at it as part of your education and be willing to try things you haven't done before. An important point, super important point, before something is your passion, it's something you know nothing about, right? Something you know nothing about. So it behooves you to go out and try lots of things and see how you react. See what really makes you excited. You're not going to figure out what you're passionate about by sitting at home alone, sitting there with a blank piece of paper, trying to brainstorm what you're going to do with your life. Got to get out there and do things and go, Oh, this is really cool. I like this. Or, you know what? This doesn't work. I'm going to pivot. Fantastic. If I just may ask you about a comment as well. You also have a very interesting point regarding breadth and depth and how much, you know, sometimes we're really incentivized to super specialize as early as possible. But there's this very interesting concept that, you know, many people have built successful careers without hyper specializing. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah. So the way that I like to think about it, and it's a way that gets taught about a design is sort of flaring and focusing. There are going to be times in which you really want to flare and try lots of things. And then at some point you're going to focus and say, okay, I'm going to spend time focusing and flaring and focusing and flaring and focusing. But it's actually kind of more interesting than this because that can happen within a single day. There could be a time of the day when you're flaring, like I'm going to go read some interesting things I've never seen before. I'm going to go explore or go to a party and meet new people or take the long way home and see places I haven't seen before. That's flaring. And then there's a time you're going, you know, I'm going to focus. I need, I don't know, maybe it's even figure out my taxes. I need to focus or I'm going to finish a paper or I'm going to sit down and read a book. It's where you're going to get between the flaring and focusing within one day. Amazing. Another topic that I know you've thought about for quite a bit is networking. So it's a topic that sometimes might create a little bit of anxiety among students, young professionals. Many might understand that those relationships really matter, but they're unsure how to build a meaningful professional connection, how to keep up with people. I know you have a great tradition of writing, you know, thank you notes as well. In your framework, you emphasize the importance of recruiting that crew. What does that look like? Do you have a few tips for someone who wants to build a genuine relationship in their careers and help that to create opportunities over time? You brought up something very important, building authentic relationships. I'm not a fan of the term networking. It sounds very transactional and for a lot of people it is. That's not real relationships. The key is to build really meaningful connections with people where, you know, they've got your back and you've got their back. You never know what interesting things are going to come out of it. They're, you know, the best way to build these relationships is to help other people, to be sincerely generous and genuine in helping other people reach their goals. And you know what happens? They now are motivated to help you when you get to the point where you need support. It's interesting. I spend a lot of time helping other people. It's part of my job and it's something I really love to do. When I had this book launch just a few weeks ago at a local bookstore, that's kind of a big local bookstore here near Stanford, and it was packed with people, packed, packed with people from all different parts of my life. And to me, it felt like the physical manifestation of what it means to have built a community. That when you need support, when you have something to celebrate, all those people show up. And it felt like somehow I passed that test, you know? It was like, oh my gosh, when you really need people, do they show up for you? And how wonderful it feels when that happens. And it could be that you have something positive like a book launch. It could be that you lost a job, you know, or that a family member is sick. Something happens, you know you have people that you can count on because you know what? They know they can count on you. Fantastic. And like you said, over the years you have worked with these thousands of students, entrepreneurs, professionals. I'm sure you might have noticed a few different patterns for people who seem to find luck everywhere, right? Are there a few things that you see that, you know, might separate people who appear lucky from those who seem to miss the opportunities around them? Well, there are 20 chapters in the book with 20 different things that people do. So you can start at the very beginning, and I'm sure this is very relevant for those people In the law, the first chapter is about having your core values set. And why is that? You might say, why does having core values, why does that lead to being lucky? Well, you know what? Your core values are like the ballast under your ship. They keep you steady in turbulent waters. They prevent you from capsizing when people ask you to do things that are unethical or illegal. Those people, we just have to read about them in the newspaper. Those people who you go, you know what? They did not have their core values. They made decisions that ended up getting them on a slippery slope to a very bad ending. So you start out, those are sorts of things like knowing your core values, understanding the story you tell about yourself, knowing your risk profile, having very clear goals. These are all things that help you build your ship. And then there are so many things that you can do to build your team, to recruit your crew, whether it's asking for help and knowing how to do it in a way that makes it more likely that people are going to help you. Whether it's helping other people, there are so many ways that you can do this. My favorite, favorite, and most unused tool, in fact, the shortest distance between you and a likely outcome is a sincere thank you. I am shocked and amazed by how many people do not say thank you, do not send a thank you note, do not send a text, do not send, I mean, I'm going to get on my soapbox here, but you know, you can, you know, whether it's anything as simple as hosting someone for lunch, to giving them a reference for a job, to introducing them to their future partners, that it behooves you, it is, you should have to say thank you. And maybe I sound like somebody's mother, well, I guess what, I am. I think it's the most important thing we can almost teach in school is to show appreciation because the return on appreciation is boundless. If you've done something for someone that's, and you've been helpful and they don't say thank you, if they don't acknowledge it, what's the likelihood that you will help them the next time around? Very low. Very low. Isn't that true? But a lot of people don't realize it. I think what happens is that there are young people who are always in a position of being the beneficiaries, right? The beneficiaries of, of someone else's goodwill. But when you get into the position where you become the benefactor, you realize very quickly that those people who have benefited from your generosity, if they don't say thank you, if they don't acknowledge what you've done for them, the likelihood that you're going to return, do the favor again, diminishes very quickly. Most of my audience here are currently students or they're in the very first years of their careers and they're all trying to know, to, to build skills, develop the confidence, create opportunities. If you could give one practical advice that someone could start taking this week to increase the luck in their lives, what would it be? Well, besides writing thank you notes, first of all, you can start writing thank you notes to all those people who have done something for you. I can promise you the return on that will be high. The other thing is try something new, experiment, try something new, read something new, meet someone new. I am a huge believer that there is a prize in every room. It's up to you to find it. And therefore, when you go into a new room, who's there, who you should meet, what, what opportunity is there that you are going to learn about there? If you have your eyes open and add some randomness and some newness and some freshness, freshness to your life every single day, I can guarantee that you will tempt good luck your way. Fantastic. And because you just mentioned the, the gift in each room, I know there's a saying that she, that she used a lot that when you get a job, you don't just get a job, you get the keys to the building. Can you tell us a little bit more about this saying? Yes. I deeply believe this. When you get a job, you don't get that job. If you just do the job that you've been assigned, you've let everyone know, well, I guess you've got assigned to the right job. But if you realize that actually you've gotten the keys to the building and there's so many more opportunities to, to seize and problems to solve, help other people, right? Find out what your colleagues, the problems they're solving and they're worried about and help them, you know, figure out what it is that you can do to help other people reach their goals and volunteer for other things. When things come up, Hey, pick me, pick me. I can take care of that. The more you stretch, the more you demonstrate that you are able to stretch into, into bigger, bigger roles and responsibilities. And to wrap up today's episode, I wanted to ask you, looking back on your journey, studying and teaching creativity, innovation, entrepreneurship, opportunity. Is there one lesson about luck that you, you wish you had understood much earlier in your career? Well, let's, let's tap into the creativity space, which I've spent a lot of time in and something that also contributes to luck and that's being able to reframe situations, looking at situations from a different angle to come up with a new ways of looking at them. And I'm sure that as a lawyer, that is a very important thing is to take the situation you have, look at it from all different perspectives to see what sort of interesting insights you have. But if you want to be lucky, that is one of the biggest tools you have at your disposal is to see how you can solve problems that other people might not have solved. And you'll end up with, you're finding, you know, good luck on the other side. Thank you so much for making the time to come to the podcast and to share these insights. Thank you so much. It was my pleasure. Absolutely.