The Power of Community and Identity: Finding Your Place in the Law with Alanis Ortiz Espinosa

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I'll be interviewing Alanis Ortiz Espinoza. Thank you so much for making the time to come to the podcast, Alaniz. I'm very excited to hear more about your experience as a lawyer, as an in house counsel and also a board member to both the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association and also Bridgeway Family Centre. Thank you for. Coming. Thank you for inviting me. I'm very honored. Excited to be on this podcast, Claudio. I really appreciate it and to start, I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about your story. You know your journey from law studies to becoming a lawyer and also in house counseling Canada. For me, as you said, my name is Alanis and I actually always dreamed of becoming a lawyer. I think the dream began when I was 6 and I watched Legally Blonde. I just got so inspired by this, you know, fanista woman who wanted to go to law school and I thought that could be me. So definitely cinema inspired me. But it also helps that I loved reading and love the social sciences. So I knew throughout high school I took all the courses. And then once it came to the the time to choose my school, I had to choose whether, you know, I'm staying here in Canada or I'm going abroad. And so I chose to go through the UK route. And that was really my my path. I think for the most part I was straightforward, although there were times where I doubted that I'd ever get there and doubted that I could get through those many years of schooling. But one step at a time. Yeah, that eventually got. Got here. I said it to you to hear even more as we go through today's episode. But I know you've built this practice, you know, and you have good experience in both the private practice and in-house rows as well. So I'm curious to hear from you. You know, what are some of the biggest differences that you've noticed on all the way from how lawyers practice on how decisions are made and also delivered in both of those environments? So I actually began working for a company while I was in law school. So although I wasn't practicing, I was on the in the legal department. And so I saw the way they functioned and I grew to really grow a love for in-house counsel and housework. I just thought it was so unique that they have one client, which is the, the company and you build such a relationship with this they not only in a legal sense, but in a business sense, the best thing for the company long term. And so I really like that, that relationship between me and my client, me and, and the company. And so I worked there for a couple of years and then when it came time to articling, I thought, you know, I started my career technically in house and I really wanted that private practice experience. So I did do my articling at a boutique law firm and I saw very different environment. It's a completely different setup and a private practice. You have many clients. You're, you know, doing the interviews intake, doing the files, closing the files and then having more clients come in. So I think just fundamentally it's very different working in the in house and the prior practice. And eventually I did come back to in house, But I'm really glad that I got both experiences because I think they're both so different that I did learn that I'm someone that loves that long term vision. And so I think that that's why in house really works for me because I just love working with the company in all areas and just love helping them in any way that I can and, and getting to give them all of my energy. So I I really like, I really love and in-house. Fantastic. No, that's incredible. And you served on on boards and you currently serve on boards of different not-for-profit organizations associations. So I'm curious, you hear, you know, a little bit about, you know, the, the community sense and how that plays a role in your life and even, you know, what drew you to leadership to governance roles alongside with your legal career? I became interested in boards while I was in my undergrad and it was, it's quite peculiar because all the people that I knew on boards were like over 50, you know, at the end of their careers, they had a lot of extra time to volunteer. But I've always been an avid like person that loves volunteering. And I thought, well, I don't think I necessarily need to be over 50 to join a board. I mean, of course, they all have so much experience and so much wisdom. But I think that board should also reflect our communities. And our communities are are, you know, many people that many ages. So I thought that my, my youth, my young voice could, you know, serve the community. So I, I joined my first board in 2017. I believe it was a legal clinic in the Peel Region. And because it was my first board role, I learned a lot about not for profits, the background of all these not for profits, the finance governance. And because, you know, I study political science as my undergrad, I also grew to really enjoy governance work, been supporting these not for profits that benefit our communities. So that was 2017. And then over time, I've thought, well, once my term ends, I can find another board role and I found the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association while I was studying law in England. I was the only Latin American that I knew of, not only in the cohort in my year and almost the whole university. A lot of people hadn't met a Latin American before they met me. So although it's very exciting to be the first, you know, Latina that people meet it, it was very isolating. I just didn't see myself reflected. And I think that's really important for people to see themselves in their profession and the places that they're studying or working in. So I, that's when I branched out and I and I thought, well, there must be a community of Hispanic lawyers in Canada or somewhere. And so quickly after beginning my search, I found the CHPA. I joined as a student member of the Kima Mentee and eventually applied to be on the board. That was in 2021. This year, it's five years on the board and very exciting, very exciting to see even from when I joined the board to now, how much they've grown, how how they've grown in terms of their events, the scale events, their gala that they had last year, but also across Canada, I see their presence growing. It's really incredible to see our numbers growing, our presence getting stronger than yeah, just overall getting back to boards. They found them to really illuminate my my career and it they they come something I'm very passionate about and hope to continue being part of. That's amazing. So considering the these points, that community plays such a big role for you seems to be really a part of your professional identity. And if you know, if you can drill down a little bit more on that, how has being part of the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association influenced your growth as a lawyer, as a leader, as really a member of the legal community? Russian and it brings a lot of memories of my time when I was starting law school. As I mentioned, it was a childhood dream and something that I was very passionate about. But I think a common thing that happens when we're very passionate and excited about something, we're also scared of it. So although I wanted to be a lawyer, I also equally had this immense fear that would overtake me. And even when I got into law school and while I was in law school, I often doubted if I could ever be a good lawyer, at least be the kind of lawyer that I wanted to be. And that really affected me. I think I I struggled a little bit at the beginning, but with public speaking, but I knew that if I was going to go on this journey of becoming a lawyer, I really had to push against those fears and try my best. Yeah. I think public speaking was a big part of my growth throughout law school. And so I actually applied when I applied to join the board of the CHPA, it was more of a, a test of can I can I, can I do this interview? But I didn't think I'd actually get elected. So it was really just practice to practice my public speaking That, that, that application and that first interview was really to just prove to myself that I can speak in front of others and be eloquent. And that was all. That was my, that was all I wanted. But I somehow ended up on the board and there were 10 people running that year. I was the only students. They were all lawyers. I was very overwhelmed. But I'm very grateful because now I'm looking at who I was when I was applying to. Now I've grown so much in terms of my public speaking. I feel a lot more comfortable. And yeah, that the board has really, really been such an important community to me. And beyond even career, you know, these are people that I really enjoy being around. They're my friends and just an incredible group of people that I get to learn from, match up with, learn about their careers, their trajectories. So the CHP has been fundamental to my growth and I'm very grateful. And I think, I hope everyone can find their their similar community. Well, thank you so much for for sharing that. It's so incredible that you found that community and just like sad and going back to hearing a little more about your practice as well in law. I understand that you have worked across business law, real estate, states, brother corporate matters. So I'm curious here, you know, both in your role as in house counsel and in your private practice experience as well, what areas of law have shaped you the most, do you think and and why? Table area and I don't know if it's area, but in terms of law school subjects, what helped me the most was actually contract law. I've used contract everything that I've learned in that course in all areas. I think reviewing contracts, reading contracts is absolutely important in all areas and also being able be it being a good researcher, I think as well as really covered all the areas that I've worked in. But in terms of the practice areas, I think corporate laws really influenced me as well because in the real estate transactions in the estates cases in almost all the other areas, I think corporate is also very much present in those areas. So yeah, I think they're all very interconnected, but definitely contract laws helped me in in every job that I've. Worked on that makes so much sense. It's it's incredible. Just in another podcast I recorded earlier today we were just talking about how more and more in different parts of the world just imagining like overall commercial law, how how aligned it is more and more doesn't matter where you go. It doesn't matter. You know who do you see riding about it feels like it's really one of those areas of law that really got kind of a worldwide kind of coverage or or at least you know the same principles and all of that. Recently spoke with somebody who works with mining law as well and they were talking about how in this same idea right of going with the same legal principles going with the overall ideas of what practicing law looks like. That definitely made sense even though there were of course cultural differences legal differences, but still overall a contract is a contract everywhere. How people own up to it afterwards might changing different parts of the world. But it really makes a difference right you have that that clearly written piece of paper that will make it known to all parties what they're supposed to do how that should work. So I love that you brought up contract as one of your top on that sense and since you mentioned you know law school. The and, and all of that, if you're looking back in your career as an early professional, as a law student, are there a few moments that you would say were hardest transitions and, and if so, how you moved through then? But also, is there anything that you'd say? You know, this is one of the moments that I'm most proud. Of 100%, I definitely had very difficult moments and some more than others. But I would say that that licensing transition, when you finished law school and you're doing all the licensing preparations to become licensed, It was very difficult for me because when you graduate, when you're in law school, you have a whole university supporting you. You have, you know, the guidance counselors, the faculty, if you have questions, you always have somewhere to go to, a number to call. And I found like that day that I graduated, I was like, OK, well, from now on, I'm depending on myself to do all the research and find all the answers. And, you know, there's just several routes to getting licensed, one being the LM. But I did choose to continue working full time while I was getting license. So I sought to do the NCA exams by myself, like self study. And I think that's why it was so hard because I, you know, whenever I had a question or I wasn't sure about, you know, how, how many exams to take at a time, how much can I manage? I had to really figure that all out by myself. And I did lose contact with a lot of the law graduates that I studied with. So I didn't have that, you know, student group to lean on either. And so I think that time was very difficult. And it's also this kind of weird limbo that no one talks about. I mean, you're a law graduate, but you're not a lawyer. And So what are you and what kinds of jobs can I apply for? And, and it's a, it's a really, you know, interesting place to be in for for years. It's not just a few months, it's years at a time that was really difficult to navigate. But as you mentioned, I think a lot of the, you know, most difficult moments in our lives make us that much stronger. So I'm very proud of getting through those moments and for the people that supported me, including the HBA. But yes, I think there are those moments are not to be feared for sure, but they they do come. No, absolutely. I love that. I appreciate you bringing that up because it can be, it can be a little frustrating, right? The idea that it's even impacts of like your identity, how you present yourself to the world, right because. The one. Of misrepresenting anyway, so it definitely is an interesting lingo. I I appreciate you bringing that up. I don't think I heard somebody using that word, but it just describes exactly what it. Is it almost even avoid like a lot of public settings because especially with family, they would all be asking like, so you're a lawyer. Can you help me with this? No, I'm not a lawyer yet. But but you graduated law school. Yes, but there's, you know, this licensing process. I didn't pass the bar yet. So it's just such a big thing and not a lot of people understand unless you're going through it right. And so that's why it's very hard to navigate as someone doing it for the first time. And maybe you don't know many people who've gone through. It would even say that probably what like, you know, 3-4 years ago that was chewy even kind of harder to figure it out, right? Like a lot. We have much more on the Internet. We have, you know, people who are sharing information on their blogs, on LinkedIn, YouTube, whatever. But those are all kind of very new. We haven't had that for a long time. Right. I mean, your podcast didn't exist back when I was in law school. We didn't have touch PT. That would have really helped me. But I was, you know, searching through LinkedIn, trying to get coffee chats with people going on Reddit. But yeah, I think there's so much information now. And with every day that passes, there's more on the Internet, which is amazing. But there is definitely that period. It was before COVID where it was a lot harder to find this information. No, that's that's something that we like have to to acknowledge for sure that that was a an interesting moment. You know, everybody stuck in their homes happily. A lot of people decided, you know, I'll start content creating and I think that that generated a lot of good stuff that is this true out there. You know, either people continue doing what they they started back then. This podcast is a matter of fact, one of those byproducts. So I'm very proud and grateful of that. Not so great of a moment. We were living as a as a world in society. I I'd like to think that we just try to make the most out of it, right? Dude, it's your wrap up today's episode. I wanted to ask you, what advice would you give to young lawyers or early career professionals for trying to build a meaningful career, trying to find their community finds their C HVAC while also, you know, states staying connected to to their identity, staying connected to leadership opportunities. More and more. We see that as you go through your career, there's different expectations, right? And, and in the beginning of your career, maybe there's different priorities regarding to business development, to, you know, visibility, all of that. So I wanted to hear, you know, what are some of your ideas on that early career professionals lost students who are listening and tuning into today's episode. What are some things that that you would recommend should be done? So a few of the things I love to share with students when they ask me this questions. One being timelines are different for everyone and it's really not fair to compare our timeline. For example, for me, I wanted to work full time after graduating. Maybe someone else doesn't want to or need to work full time after graduating. We're going to be studying at different paces. Some people have families, some people are married. We all have different responsibilities. We have completely different paths. And I think for a lot of us, having LinkedIn is such a benefit, but it can also be a place where we compare ourselves and compare our timelines. Well, they're getting called and I haven't, I haven't, they haven't. You know, we, we often do that. Yeah, I think a lot of lawyers are high achievers, so it's understandable. But I also think that our timelines are so are just so attached to us and, and it's not fair to, to compare. And so really just staying on your timeline and know that it's OK if things are not happening as fast as you want them to. And it's OK to maybe elongate your licensing process. And I'm really just saying that because my licensing took so long. And I would have loved to hear that. So it's OK to take your time. And 2nd I would say is take care of yourself. I really wanted to get licensed and, you know, was over studying, almost burning out. And it's not sustainable. As we all know, lawyers were using our brains almost all day. It's our the most prized possession, but with a healthy mind, you need a healthy body first. So I I would say take care of your body. And that means, you know, pacing yourself, don't overextend yourself, you know, take a break, exercise when you can get fresh air, see your friends. I think it's all important and balance is also very key. Third thing I would say, which you mentioned identity. And this is another big thing with lawyers. I think a lot of us oftentimes identify just as lawyers and you know, our whole life is wrapped up into this identity and it's great. But also, you know, I think we're more than our profession. You know, we're all multifaceted. We all have hobbies, other interests, and I think it's amazing to see ourselves as beyond lawyers, you know, more than that. And I think overall, the overarching theme is really, you know, live a balanced life. And that means also seeking your communities like the CHPA. And just know that everything will happen and it's time. I hope that makes sense. That's amazing. Well, thank you so much. As a young professional myself, I feel inspired by what you just said. So really, really much appreciated. Those are, if anything, they're great reminders of things that we need to be often reminded to do more and more. So I really appreciate you bringing that up. And I wanted to thank you truly for coming in the show and to share a little more about your story, your career, and also your your insights for our public thank. You thank you so much for having me and for creating this space for young people. As we said, you know this didn't exist years ago, so I really appreciate all the work you're doing in this space. Thank you so much and thank you all for tuning into today's episode and and listening.