Community Practice, Global Legal Leadership, and Protecting Your Boundaries with Mark Evans

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today, I'm very excited to interview Mark Evans. He's the current president of the Law Society of England and Wales and has an incredible life journey and is really a great example of a servant leader, I must say. I had the absolute privilege of meeting Mark when he came to Toronto for the IBA, the International Bar Association conference. I had the chance to run in his running group early in the morning. And later he was very gracious to receive me and a group of lawyers visiting the UK and showing us around the Law Society. Thank you so much for making the time now to come on my show, Mark. I really appreciate it. It's great to join you today and a real pleasure to catch up. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I had just mentioned briefly about your experience now as the president of the Law Society of England and Wales, but I know your journey began in a very different setting. And if I recollected correctly, in a small village in North Wales. So before we talk about what you're up to these days, I'd love to hear a little bit, but you could introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us a little bit about the person behind the title. I never thought I could be a solicitor growing up. I never thought I could be President of the Law Society of England and Wales. Nothing was forecasted that that was going to happen. So I grew up in a small village in North Wales. No one in my family had, you know, had any connections with law or any legal background. My father was a steelworker and my mum volunteered at a local primary school. And growing up, I wanted to be in the police force as a teenager, but at that time in the 1980s, there was a height restriction and I just wasn't tall enough. I did have a growth spurt later on in life, but at that time I wasn't tall enough. But when I was studying for my exams, my history teacher said, well, I've got a friend who's a lawyer. Would you like to see if I can get you some work experience at a law firm? And he did. And I spent a week basically doing some work experience in a very traditional sort of high street law firm. And I loved it. And that sort of then gave me the incentive to apply to study law at university. And then I went on then to do a training contract and qualified as a solicitor in 1995. But it was really the opportunity that my history teacher gave me, you know, allowed me to enter law, you know, and to this day, most of my friends are non-lawyers from the, and I still live within 3 miles of where I grew up. So my home is still very much in North Wales. But yeah, so it's not a traditional route, but it's one that, you know, I've been very fortunate to be on. That's amazing. I love to hear that. And I thought I'd bring 2 points before we move on. So for those of us across the pond, I don't think we speak of high street as much. Does that mean a general practice? Is that what the term means? So a high street lawyer is somebody who basically is a general practitioner where a member of the public can go to their town or their city and see a lawyer. And in that firm, they offer a range of sort of legal services, whether it be family litigation, employment law, you name it. Basically, it's a service that's offered to the local community. Fantastic. And I also wanted to point out something very interesting. You're one of very few presidents of the Law Society who comes from North Wales. So there's a very important point. Is that right? Yeah. Well, I'm the first president from North Wales, but the Law Society is 201 years old, and I'm only the 3rd Welsh president in full. So yeah, predominantly the presidents have all come or have been based in England. Obviously, Wales is a very small nation, but I'm very proud to represent Wales on an international stage. But obviously I'm proud as well to be representing both England and Wales as well in our jurisdiction. Absolutely. Well, thank you for mentioning that. I think it really means a lot. And I'm curious, you know, you mentioned growing up in a small village, about still living close to it. And how has growing up and building your career in Wales and seeing the community in the day-to-day shaped the way you see the legal profession? And especially now, you know, as you go around the world and get to meet you know, world leaders. Do you think that lawyers elsewhere in England and Wales can also learn from the legal communities outside the major cities? Of course they can. I think at the end of the day, as lawyers, we're here to help and support individuals and businesses with their legal needs and demands. And I think, you know, where I grew up is geared around community. supporting and helping each other. And I think that it's a human skill. And we may touch upon later in our conversation about technology and AI and other things, but ultimately, you're there to help and assist people often in difficult or troubling times. And that's where the emotions come in as well, of being sympathetic or having empathy or you know, assisting your clients through those difficult decisions that they need to make. But it's also, you're also dealing with things that are joyful, buying your first home or picking up your keys to your very first flat, you know, and moving into your new business premises and that. So, you know, it's a very human job being a lawyer, you know, and lots of emotions that you go through. And so, I think if you're working within your community, and for me, the advantage is knowing the people and the characters in the community, and you You speak the same language, you understand the same concerns as them. It makes you become a trusted part of that community where people will turn to. And I think that's no different around the world. We all have clients who will follow you because they like you. They follow you, they want your skill, they want you as an individual as well as your legal expertise. Amazing. And Mark, you've spent more than 30 years practising before moving into teaching and then taking on increasingly your rose within the Law Society. And looking back, I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, what lessons on leadership, on, you know, dealing with people that you've learned really from being a practicing solicitor that maybe you could not have learned in any kind of leadership course or any textbook. I think, I think you, as lawyers, we were taught to, you know, understand and apply the law. And you do need, obviously, your textbooks or your information and all of that that goes with it. But it's the skills element. It's the interpersonal skills of interviewing, communicating, drafting, letter writing. These are all personal skills that are very individual to you and how you communicate. And everyone will have their own way of how they communicate. I like to keep my communication very personal. Very relatable. And I always was told from an early age that write as if, or speak as if you're talking to your mum and would she understand what you were saying? And if she understands, then you've cracked it. Because, you know, let's face it, not many people understand the legalities of certain technical issues of the law, but they want to know how it affects them and what the solutions are or what the remedies are. And you don't need to talk in legal language. You just need to be able to communicate in a way that everyone understands. And I think that's the skill of being a lawyer. It's the art of communication, and it's the way that you can express things, you know, to make it easily understandable. And throughout my career, obviously, that's the part of the job that I've loved the most, having the relationship with Clients, not only, you know, on a one-off transaction, but in the area of work that I practised, which was sort of succession planning and real estate and property, often you were acting for generations of families where you'd be acting for the grandfather and then the parents and then the grandchildren, you know, over that sort of 30-year period. And that's a great, great thing to experience and to relate to them about your meeting with their grandfather, you know, so many years ago and, and talk about the old family dog that they all remember. That is not in the textbook. That is not, you know, in there, but that's where those relationships are formed. That's incredible. In this podcast, I try really to speak to young lawyers, practitioners who are just starting their careers. And I do believe that many of us do crave for that community to be built in the legal space. So I think it's much appreciated to be, you know, touching on this point as we speak today. On the other hand, as you pointed out just now, there's a lot that's changing in the legal profession that has been changing for many years. And of course, we cannot kind of go on without mentioning technology, AI, and so forth. And there's many new ways to practice law, right? So, so I'm curious when you, when you speak with people around the world and maybe more in a personal capacity than really institutionally speaking. What do you think lawyers today should be looking into that maybe 20, 30 years ago nobody was thinking about or speaking of? Yeah, it's strange because I'm now at the stage in my career where I'm becoming quite reflective. And, you know, when I started in 1993, my secretary then, Barbara, had a manual typewriter. You know, there was no internet, there was no computer, there was no mobile phones. You know, the way of communication then was a handwritten letter or a typed letter that you would post. You know, there was a fax machine, I think, only worked if you had paper in it. But now, obviously, we're living in a world of technology where it's 24/7. You know, you're getting messages not only by way of emails, but texts or WhatsApp messages or other forms of communication on social media where you're easily accessible. And I think it's important that, you know, for the next generation that we set boundaries and perimeters as to a work-life balance that you need to ensure that you switch off from work. When I started, it was easy because you literally left the office and nothing happened until you went in on Monday, you know, over the weekend. Well, that doesn't happen now because of the communication aspect. I think you need to ensure that you're as strict with your private diary as you are with your work diary, because it's very easy now to make appointments at all hours, at all times of the day, and keep on working and working and working, but then you're sacrificing valuable time with your friends and family that you won't ever get again. And so technology is changing what we as a legal community, and I see this across the world, we're all facing the same challenge. is how we find times for ourselves and how we support each other in this situation. And, you know, having these important conversations within the legal community and with our clients to set realistic expectations. You know, I'm sure you've seen it as well that, you know, somebody will send you an email. If you don't instantly respond, they'll try other forms of communication with you to try and get an answer. And that's even maybe before you've even switched on your time, your computer, because you're in a different time zone. For example. So yeah, these pressures will, I sometimes think, in the next 30 years is how we deal with the pace of life is important. I love that. I love that. I think it's something that we cannot overlook. And I appreciate you mentioning that, especially as I said, this focus on young lawyers, law students, really those good habits should be instilled early on or else it becomes hard once you're Very set in your way of practice. And something that I really loved seeing since we met, Marc, is how involved you are in many different aspects of the community, but how you've been throughout your life. And I think one message that comes through quite strongly, it's that importance of getting involved. So whether it's through the Law Society, local communities, education, or initiatives that you've started, such as The Legal Runner. Why do you think so many lawyers maybe remain in the sidelines of the profession? And what would you say to someone who believes their voice, maybe it's too small to make a difference, especially as a young lawyer? I think it goes back to my roots and my heritage. If you're from a small village, you never feel that your voice will ever be heard, or, you know, that you're the voice of somebody who lives in a city or in a big town, you know, will always have a sort of a, you know, more of a say than you. And I grew up with my parents sort of encouraging me to make sure that you express your opinion, make sure that you get involved. And they did. They got involved in the local community. My dad was a school governor and my mum volunteered, you know, in different organizations and they embraced that community life. And I think I've just followed that on naturally. You know, I've always thought that, you know, if you want to see change within your community, you've got to be part of it. You know, why should you think that someone else will drive that change or make the change for you? And so I've always wanted to put myself forward to see if I can make a difference or help people. And, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You know, sometimes you can suggest something and everyone else will turn around and say, well, that's not a good idea, but I'd rather have expressed that opinion than not at all. And so my advice to, you know, anyone really is to get involved in what you're passionate about, to get involved in, you know, areas, but also make sure that you maintain a good balance, you know, that you don't overcommit and you don't subscribe to too many things. And at times I've had to step back from things because I could see, you know, that it was impacting on my sort of mental health and wellbeing by trying to do too much. So I think it's always important that you express your voice and you express your opinion. And then you can look back and say, well, if they haven't listened to me, at least I've tried. At least I've tried to make a difference. But more often than not, actually, you will find that things will be implemented and changes can be made. I'd encourage anyone really not to sit on the sidelines, but to get involved in any way they possibly can. And And it's not always joining a committee or a club or a society or a group. Sometimes it could be just simply participating in surveys or participating in sort of feedback or questionnaires that you can do in your own time, really. So there's different ways that you can do it, but the important thing is just do it. I love that. And I've had the chance to see you speaking a few times about lawyers as people, not simply as professionals. And your work around wellbeing, around communities really reflect that. So after many decades in the profession now, is there something that you feel that lawyers maybe misunderstand about success? And is it possible to build a meaningful legal career without allowing the profession to become your entire identity? Now, before I let you answer that, myself included, being from a small town, Sometimes it can be hard to let that identity not be, you know, the whole thing, because everyone who sees you automatically knows you are the town's lawyer or one of them. And then you become very much attached to the profession in everything you do or say or where you are. So I'd love to hear some of your thoughts. I think you need to always be true to yourself. You should never change because of the career that you're in. So your character should always be you. And obviously, as lawyers, we have a very responsible role that we do. We have ethical responsibilities and duties. We have duties of confidentiality where we can't share or disclose information about our clients, even to any close family or friends. And so there's a lot of pressures about when you're a lawyer as such. And I think it's important that I try to communicate that You know, yes, you're a skilled and trained lawyer, but you're also human. You do still have those same emotions that your clients are going through. You still do have the same emotions when you see a tragic case or, you know, you read some information that is shocking or harrowing because of, you know, the details of the information that you're reading. And, you know, you're not superhuman being a lawyer. You are just a human being. And I think it's important that, you know, that you portray a professional image, but you, I took the view that it's also important that I portray an image of a lawyer is just an ordinary person as well. You know, somebody who shares the same values and opinions as your neighbour, really. And I think, you know, everyone is different. I found it easier to talk openly about certain topics that, you know, I find it easier actually to talk to strangers than maybe to friends and family about topics such as dementia or baby loss or mental health, for example, you know, and, but not everyone is the same. And I think it's important that, you know, what I've done is very much, I'm very comfortable in what I do. I think if you're a character or person that are maybe more introvert or maybe want to keep your emotions more, maybe more private or personal, then that's fine. But I think it's always important that whichever group you're in, we signpost that help is available when you need it. And that's the key really, is making sure that there may come a time in, in our lives where we all need help and support from others. And where do we go, or who do we turn to when we reach that point? Whether we be from a city, a town, or a village, at some point we may all need some support. And Mark, this, this podcast is about studying law around the world, and your work has taken you into conversations with, with legal communities, with the regulators, and many other organizations internationally. And I'm curious now that you're quite, quite a bit into your presidency term, what do you think that lawyers and professional bodies can learn from each other across borders? And where do you see the greatest opportunities for collaboration, especially internationally, in the years ahead? I feel for many years, maybe we were seeing lawyers as very much bound by their borders. I think the UK does a great job at being where the profession is not seen as much as a closed space because of its history and all, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Okay. I represent 210,000 lawyers based in England and Wales, but we have over 12,000 lawyers based permanently around the world practicing English and Welsh law. And so therefore, in the UK, it's slightly different maybe from other nations. Many of our lawyers are practicing English law in, you know, in China or in America or in Canada or in Australia or in India as such. And often they're practicing in areas where common law, in areas of shipping or maritime or insurance or dispute resolution or arbitration. You know, so where contracts have maybe an English law contract. So, so, you know, English law is a global, shall we say, entity. And, but what I have seen when I've been traveling the world is that the issues that is faced by every practitioner is a global issue. We're all facing the same issues about the rule of law, access to justice, you know, legal aid, human rights. You know, and the pressures of regulation and practicing, you know, it doesn't matter which continent you're on. You know, many people are now seeing that these issues are affecting everyone. And so having and meeting with international colleagues is important to share views, what's working, what's not working, to have collaboration. And that's where, when we meet and we have met, you know, like for example, at the IBA, International Bar Association, you know, it's a chance to share and learn from others, you know, and bring that back to your own jurisdiction. I think the other thing for me that I've seen is that the law now increasingly has no boundaries, as you say, with borders. And many of the students that I have been teaching over the last few years, yes, they want to qualify maybe as a solicitor in England and Wales. But if they want to be an international lawyer, they're also thinking now about getting dual qualification and being qualified in another state or another jurisdiction as such. And so there is an increasing trend now of lawyers not only qualifying within their home country, but also seeking to becoming a lawyer, let's say, elsewhere. So you may be a lawyer who— a solicitor who's got a practising certificate in England and Wales, but you're also qualified at the New York Bar, or you're also qualified, let's say, in Asia as well. So, and I think goes back to what we said before, you know, many of the areas of law now are global. When it looks at intellectual property, when it looks at, you know, AI and technology, those boundaries don't stop just because we cross the border. And so in certain areas and mergers and acquisitions and takeovers, and, you know, companies are now global, you know, and they have bases and offices in every continent. And so they need lawyers and they need lawyers who are skilled in the jurisdictions of that country. tutoring as well. So I think it's an exciting time for anyone entering into the profession. And, but I think the importance is making sure you have continual open dialogue and communication with our international friends and allies. I really appreciate you bringing that up. And as you know, we get to the end of our conversation today to wrap up today's episode. I wanted to bring it back to the personal sense that we Spoke for much of the conversation today. I started this show really asking people, how do you become a lawyer in your jurisdiction? And I soon realized that those things being shared, they were first ever-changing. So in a few months, that could really change the way that process works. But I realized that it is those lived stories, it is the experience that one acquires through their practice in life that was really much more meaningful for anyone listening. And if you were speaking to a younger lawyer, as you do, I'm sure, with your students now, Mark, who is ambitious, but perhaps unsure about where their career should take them and how they should go about forming that, what would you tell them about building a career that is successful, but it's also meaningful and true to who they truly are? I think my advice to students is Find an area of law that, you know, that you find interesting, but also try and experience it at a practical level as well. Often many of our students, my students, you know, for example, when they study academically, may not like land law or trust law because it may be too complicated or very dry or very boring in their perception. But then when they actually practice it and do it in reality and involved in the transaction on a day-to-day, they then all of a sudden say, wow, This is really interesting. When I studied it, it was quite a boring subject. But however, when I'm now in practice, I can see the opportunities that it gives. So to keep an open mind, don't be put off by what you've studied, that, you know, actually try if you can get experience in the area of law and then see if you like it. Now that's easier said than done. But the big difference for the legal community these days from when I started is traditionally you would be working for a firm or, you know, a government body. 30% now of lawyers in the UK work in-house as general counsel, and they're working now in legal departments, let's say media companies or big global mining companies or mineral extraction companies or whatever it is. And, you know, Many lawyers are now becoming very specialist in their areas of law, you know, so you can have a sports lawyer, you can have an entertainment lawyer, you can have a media lawyer or whatever. You know, recently at an event here in London, you know, for, I think, International Disputes Week, you know, I was on a panel and I shared a panel with a, you know, a space lawyer talking about disputes in space, you know, or disputes in the deep sea or disputes in Antarctica or the Arctic, you know, and then I've met recently somebody who's an animal rights lawyer. You know, as such. And I think this is the issue, you know, for the next generation is what area of law appeals to you? If you can experience it in practice and then do that, because you spend an awful lot of time in life working and why do a job that you don't enjoy? Is make sure you find your passion. For me, I've never been a litigator, you know, and the thought of going to court or, you know, in disputes. Has never really appealed to me, you know, but I like, I found my areas being, you know, getting people to pick up their keys for their flat or their house or moving into their new business premises or supporting people going through bereavement and making sure that those families are okay. Everyone's different, you know, and as I'm sure you've experienced as well, that, you know, it's finding that area that really appeals to you. and giving it your best shot. I love that. Thank you so much for bringing that piece of wisdom. I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your thoughts. They're much appreciated. Thank you all for tuning into today's episode as well, and we'll see you on the next one. Thank you so much.