Touchdown: Starting the Canadian Legal Path with Erika Bailey

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. Today we have a very special episode, a bit different, and we'll explain about that in details in a little bit. But today we are happy to receive Erica Bailey. She works at the University of Toronto and has a wonderful background that she'll discuss with us today. We are trying out a little bit of a different style and a different way to come about with the podcast in this episode, and we're very excited for this series. So please help me to welcome Erica Bailey in our episode today. Thank you so much for joining us, Erica. It's a pleasure to be here, Claudio. Thank you for the invitation. I'm so excited for our conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, to get us started, how about you tell us a little bit about yourself, Erica? I love that question. I ask students to do this all the time, and now it's turned on me. It feels daunting. So hello, everybody. My name is Erica Bailey, and I use she and her pronouns. I am the Graduate Career Advisor here at the University of Toronto Faculty of Law, and I have the great privilege of serving the students in our programs who are internationally trained lawyers, either Canadians who've gone abroad and have returned with an LLB, or folks who have trained internationally and are coming to Canada to license here. One of the things I love the most about this is that I learn about the world and I learn about the law through these many complex and mature perspectives, and I have to admit it's been such a joy to be able to serve this community in this way. As we get started, if it's all right with you, Claudio, I'm going to give a small land acknowledgement. This is important in the context of Canada when in 2015 the Truth and Reconciliation Commission did an analysis and review and came forward with 94 calls to action. These calls to action seek to first listen to the truth of the Indigenous peoples from across Turtle Island, also known as North America, and to hear and understand the effects of colonialism and specifically, especially here in Canada, the long-term intergenerational impact and violence and genocide against Indigenous people through the, through the residential school system. And so the very— one of the very top recommendations is a land acknowledgement. And we are all connected to each other through land, even if oceans keep us apart. And so, Claudio, I'd like to personally thank and be acknowledgement of the lands on which the University of Toronto operates and where I find my home. These are the traditional lands of the Huron-Wendat, the Seneca, and the Mississaugas of the Credit. Today, this is still meeting place for many Indigenous peoples from across Turtle Island, and I feel so grateful to be in community here with you today to have this conversation. and to be able to work and live on these lands. And so we also are excited to welcome you to Canada and this land as well, Claudio. Thank you. Thank you very much. I love that in these last few episodes of the podcast, we started a new season talking about Canada, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to also have the chance to get our listeners to understand and hear a little bit about land acknowledgment, which is more and more common, and it's a very important act to be done. Thank you for explaining also and giving context. Well, everybody, we are also very excited to try this new format, as we were discussing just briefly. And today we're trying to get to know a little bit more about, um, what am I talking about Canada in this last season? And, um, I've spoken with Erica a couple weeks ago. We were, you know, brainstorming some ideas, and we thought it would be fun to, to try a new format. For, for many, many episodes now, uh, maybe 40 episodes right now, You've heard me asking questions, you've heard me making just little comments, but we are thinking about something a little different, and we're thinking about a miniseries inside this season as we speak about Canada. So, Erica, can you, can you take on the lead and tell us a little bit more about this idea? Thank you, Claudio. For your listeners, if you ever have the chance to be interviewed by Claudio, I highly recommend. He is such a creative, thoughtful, community-oriented person, and I'm really excited that he was open to a suggestion. The reason I propose a slight different change is that Claudia is about to launch into a whole new way of being as an internationally trained lawyer and is coming to Canada like next week. And so I thought, well, what an incredible opportunity for your listeners, A, to understand what it means to be an internationally trained lawyer to move to Canada. B, what are the kind of lived experiences that you might expect? What are the weird things that happen in this process? What's the challenge? And what better way to get to know you, Claudia, than to understand what is your journey like? And so we're going to do almost like a teeter-totter. We're going to tip back and forth, and the conversation is going to be co-led between me and Claudio. And he has been very open to this suggestion. But I think the idea is for me to ask Claudio about his experience. I am a professional coach, I am an advisor, and I'm a genuinely curious person who loves to listen to stories. And that's the kind of work I do here at the Faculty of Law with and for NCA candidates. But I think this also is a chance for us to hear about Claudio's own journey as the concentration of your podcast seems to be moving towards Canada. And so Claudio, it sounds like you are open to that. Absolutely, I am. In a few of the episodes previously, I've spoken of how the idea of the podcast came about. I've given a little bit of context of what, like, what was the beginning? Why did I start it? It was such a fun project to do as a law student in Brazil. And also it was a great way to connect with people through COVID, right? During COVID is when I really got the chance to put more time into this. It was a hard time for everybody, but I was very happy to get a project out, and it was maybe even a way to cope with everything that was going on. But more than that, something that was very special to me is the idea of the podcast really came after I had some opportunities to meet lawyers in other countries. I got the chance to present some conferences abroad, and When meeting those people, I realized that it was so interesting to get to know how do you become a lawyer and how do you see lawyers in the legal profession in other countries. And I wanted to get the chance to give the chance to my colleagues in law school to learn about that. I didn't want to keep it all to myself. So the podcast was a great tool for that. In the beginning, I did it kind of in a, in a bilingual way. I would ask questions in English, translate it, and then go back. But that soon proved to be not sustainable in the long term. So at this point we're doing it in English and we hope it's the most accessible it can be nowadays. Happily, the platforms now can transcribe it as well. And so we're working with what we can at this moment. But I'm very, very excited to launch this and to talk a little bit about my story and how this all came about. Wonderful and lovely segue. I mean, it pretty much leads itself, Claudio, but I think, you know, I think we're looking at you Today, you are how many days away from getting on a plane to come to Canada? I'm 7 days away. 7 days away. Okay, so let's talk about the feelings. What's going on in your mind? What's going on in your heart? What's happening right now for you as you're contemplating moving your entire life to Canada? Well, that's a— I don't know if I thought through about this, but definitely as we are doing these things, as we're moving or as we are, you know, preparing for something big, I feel like we don't take a moment to reflect on what's going on feeling-wise, right? There's a big to-do list to be done and all of that, but that, that's a great check for sure. So right now I'm definitely, you know, just making sure that I have everything that I've bought, everything that I want to take with me. And that goes all the way from, I don't know, personal items to like little gifts or stuff like that. So making sure that I cross all of those to-dos. As I, as I was fortunate enough to have the chance to be in Canada before, I'm I feel like I have like a pretty clear idea of what's in there and what are some things that maybe I can't get there easily. So just, it's been very interesting to, you know, just get together for a big trip. And different than other traveling that I've done in the past, this is kind of like a relocating, right? It's a longer project. Mm-hmm. So it's my first time traveling abroad for a, for a study program that is going to be that probably is going to be where I'll, you know, continue my career and all of that. So it's definitely a different experience in that sense. If I could interrupt, what makes it different? Because I think going on a trip, it's, you know, you're buying a ticket, you've got a return ticket. What's different about coming to Canada as a study— either on a study permit or for those who are coming as permanent residents? What do you think is different for you? Yeah, well, I feel like whenever I traveled, even if it was for like 6 months or anything like that, I always knew I had my room to come back to. And, you know, in a way, this is not going to change, but I don't know yet when I'm going to get to see my parents again, for example. So all these little things are, you know, they carry a lot of emotion to it for sure. They carry a lot of good expectations on the same side, right? They get— they carry maybe the opportunity for in the near future for my parents to visit me in Canada and my family and all of that. But some other things maybe that I could share, you know, like I've had my career here, even though I feel like in other countries you start your career once you graduate. Yes. It feels very much different here in Brazil. People start working from high school onwards, you know. So I, I did high school at nighttime. So our high school would be from 7 PM to 10:30 PM because most people had full-time jobs. So that was a way to make sure that students wouldn't drop out of high school. So they would still graduate. My first job, my first formal job was at the age of 14. And at the age of 16, that's when I started working at a law office. I worked at a land registry office. That was my first formal job as an administrative assistant. And I hadn't graduated high school yet. So it was definitely a big influence on me on how— why to go to law school. I saw these people that I admired, I loved the way they, you know, put themselves out and they were so nice with me and all the, all of that. It, it ended up being a big influence on why I chose law in the first place. Maybe not why I sticked with it, but definitely why I decided to get into it. So, um, it definitely feels a little different in, in all of those senses, you know? And because of that, I mean, having built that career for a long time now, I feel like in a way I have what we, we jokingly call golden handcuffs here, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, I have great opportunities. I've just completed a clerkship, a clerkship with a justice in an appellate court. So even for Brazil, there's not that many justices in appellate level in the country, you know, for a giant country as it is. So this was a very special opportunity for me. And all these things really are very meaningful, you know? For sure. And I love— so we also have the golden handcuffs. It's the same term. I don't know how it is in Portuguese, but it's definitely a term here in Canada, which means that these things are beautiful and it gives me great benefits, but I'm kind of locked into this. And I'm curious if you could talk a bit about why, like what's your journey about choosing to, A, stay in law, but to do it in Canada? And so could you bring us some of those steps you took, your research that you conducted, your decision-making process for those who may be considering that? Yeah, that's incredible. Thank you so much for asking. My previous experiences internationally speaking, are mainly concentrated in the US and Canada. And as I kind of navigated and talked with many people and tried to see different opportunities, I realized that first of all, Canada does have a much more friendly system towards immigrating and being an immigrant going into a profession. So I wouldn't have to, you know, in a way start from scratch, all of those often shared notions of what being an immigrant looks like. So definitely that was a big point to Canada, the way that you can become an immigrant in a more easy way, or that you can immigrate and become a citizen with rights, you know, not necessarily citizen in the sense of having citizenship, but what I'm speaking about is more in the social aspect of it, of having the right to work and having the, you know, these other specificities that I guess would formally be mentioned as being a permanent resident. Right, with the right to work. So that was definitely a pathway that seemed to be much more seamless for transitioning into a career in Canada. Besides that, I was very fortunate to have great mentors, have people that I met in the past and even through the podcast, as a matter of fact, that have incentivized me and told me how the legal market in Canada is an open market, is a market that has a need for more people, is a market also that compared to other countries, Canada has very few law schools, right? So it's still a profession that is highly regarded. And that thing in the law has maybe lost itself a little bit in other countries where law school just became a very popular way of education. So those are a few of the things that I've considered. Besides that, I also got the opportunity to be in Canada for a couple months as a research trainee at Osgoode, one of the other universities that has a law school in Canada. And that gave me the opportunity to attend a law school classroom, see what it looks like. So it gave me a lot more of an opportunity to see it for myself instead of just, you know, listening to great stories and people saying, hey, it's great out here, you know, you're gonna love the place, you're gonna love even the cold winter. So I got to experience it a little bit for myself, which also helped me to decide on coming and staying. Yeah. And when you were considering schools, obviously you're wearing another school's sweater, and we hope that when you become a student at U of T, you will also invest in a hoodie from the University of Toronto, but that sweater does look good on you. But we have some phenomenal programs across Canada that do accept MCA candidates. And so what were some of the factors that you were considering as you were thinking about which schools you might consider applying to? Yeah, that's a, that's a really good question. The format of the podcast, I usually just use audio. I'll just quickly mention to our listeners, I'm right now wearing an Osgoode Hall Law School sweater. And they have a wonderful program, I have to say. Yes. And that's where I just mentioned that I had a great experience studying in Canada. Part 2, why did I choose to go to the University of Toronto? Right. What the program had differently. So I feel like anybody who's researching how to become a lawyer in Canada, what's the process? There's a few different pathways, but the pathway that you can choose that you go through law school and you get a degree usually will lead you to very few programs, maybe 6 or 7 of them in the country. 3 of them, sorry. Just very few programs and fewer that give you a degree, right? That's why there's so few. The other ones will give you some of the other prerequisites, but not a degree itself. Global Professional LLM that the University of Toronto offers has several benefits. And one of them was, first of all, I connected with the alumni and they highly recommended it for all the different aspects of it, you know, from, from the newly established to some extent career services, all the way to the way the classes are organized and the flexibility that the program offers. So as far as I know, the U of T LLM is the only— the GPLLM is the only program that offers classes only on Fridays and Saturdays. And being somewhat in an executive style, for those who are more familiar with the MBA world, it does provide you with an easier way for having a job while you're in school, for example. And even though the program is full-time, very demanding, and in a way you're going to have work to do even though— even if you don't have a full-time job for sure, it does give you that flexibility that if that ends up becoming a thing, you know, if you end up finding a job and all of that, that does allow for some flexibility and allow you to do both things at the same time. So that was a big point for me to start with. And thank you. And I want to acknowledge that there are some remarkable schools across Canada who offer something equivalent to what we do here at U of T. So I want to balance it simply by saying the following. So the National Committee on Accreditation is charged by the Federation of Law Societies of Canada. So all jurisdictions have representation on that law society, that federation, to say, this is what we need our self-regulated body of lawyers. We need to see internationally trained lawyers and law students to meet these core requirements. And they have charged what is called the National Committee on Accreditation or the NCA. And there are multiple ways that, or a couple ways in which internationally trained lawyers and law students can meet those NCA-assessed requirements. And one of the ways is to attend one of the programs. And so each of the schools across Canada offers something distinct, unique in different settings. Each is valid and wonderful in its own right. And so doing research is really important. And I think I want to use this as a pivot point to talk about, you know, obviously you're doing a law degree, but really you're going to get a degree, you're going to meet your NCA requirements, get the certificate of qualification, but that's all ultimately so you can start beginning your licensing journey. And so when you're thinking about understanding the labor market and the legal market here in Canada, could you talk a little bit about the research you've done, what you've discovered, what your questions still are, Claudio? Well, first of all, I love how well organized it is. I ended up learning that all of North America have a very similar style, but Canada is very unique, especially in the Toronto area. You have a law society that regulates, for example, recruitment. And I think that's very interesting. So those of you who are researching and getting to know and maybe are interested in becoming a lawyer in Canada, there's a lot of things you, you need to know ahead of time, let's say, in a way. So for example, my program officially is beginning in September, right, in the fall semester. But to apply for jobs, I apply for it starting in like June this year to start working June next year. So you get hired about a year in advance in a way. So it's in a way very different from all the work experience I've had so far. Most of the work experience I've had was very much based on demand. They needed somebody to fill a role and they would hire somebody to do that. In the legal market in Canada, especially in a bigger setting, right, there's this specificity. For sure. And just to add on that point, the regulated recruit in Canada is the first instance in which employers may begin recruiting for their articling roles, but does not necessarily mean it's the only time. And I need to make that clear because a lot of internationally trained lawyers come start their program and then like stop breathing 'cause they're like, oh my gosh, I've missed the recruit. I am never going to get a job. That's not true. In fact, many employers have already begun recruiting for the same timeframe, but just a little later than June. So just to be clear to your listeners, if they are thinking about it, the regulated recruit, there's a lot of attention around it because there are major law firms, massive government organizations, some of the biggest employers, but it doesn't mean it's the only way. And in fact, many internationally trained lawyers have enormous success outside of the recruitments that are regulated by the law societies and bar associations across Canada. So I just want to make sure people are clear. But yes, thank you, Claudio. And so you've— have you been talking to employers, or how are you learning about the labor market itself? Yeah, that's great. So I feel like there's a few specific sources of information. Definitely the alumni network has helped a lot on explaining how it works, timelines, things you should do, things you shouldn't do. Besides that, at the U of T program, we do have a wonderful program that helps us to understand the pathway to become a lawyer. So even before our program starts, we already have all the details, and we have the opportunity to interact with Erica that you all are getting the chance to listen to right now on all these little details. And there's so much to learn all the way from, you know, building up a resume that That is what employers are used to see or what they expect to see in a way, all the way to writing a cover letter and then all the way to where do you even submit those. So there's all these little details and there are so many of those that sometimes can feel overwhelming, but definitely with some time and research and putting the effort in, it gets manageable. And Erica does make it easy explaining everything and making webinars as part of this program that we have. Previous to starting the GP LLM. I must say also that we, from what I've heard, we've been very privileged to get the program this early as well. So very grateful for the opportunity to get to understand all of these details ahead of time, you know. And as you said, it's great that we— it's not a prerequisite or anything like that, that people apply ahead or anything like that, but I just feel good about knowing that there is a possibility, right? So Definitely getting to know the details, the research, and knowing what to expect next has helped me a lot to even be less anxious with the experience. So question, you have been preparing to talk about yourself to employers in a labor market where you're not even yet a candidate, right? Like you, you are not even in the country and you've already tried to squish all of your life experience, all of your training, all of who Claudio is into a very distinct application package and started to try and figure out how do you articulate. So tell us, let's be honest, what are the challenges with that? What have you struggled with as it relates to your preparing for your career in Canada for after you finish your studies that you haven't even arrived to start? So tell us a little bit about, like, let's be honest with your listeners. Yeah, as I mentioned, just the amount of information can be daunting at times, just trying to keep up with everything, right? So there's a lot to Keep in mind, there's a lot of little, maybe not so often spoken rules of how you format things or how people are used to seeing resumes that are up to 2 pages. You know, there's all these like little details and that's what I feel like can be daunting at times. One of the big points for sure, trying to translate your experience can also be challenging at points because at some points you don't know necessarily if the, I don't know, public office you worked in Brazil has a correspondent to Canada. And then if so, how is— what is it called there? Or just by saying the name of it, would that be enough context for people to understand what you did? So oftentimes I see that it does require some more explaining, right? Especially because you're in another country. So trying to put that— I feel like, for example, preparing documents, right? As you prepare your cover letter and everything like that, there's an even higher expectation that everything will follow the same standards. So you have everything with the same fonts, the same page, you know, everything looking nice and matching, you know. So if you were to print everything, everything would look like they're, oh, they all belong together, right? They all were edited the same, the same style. So all of those little things have been, you know, a source of anxiety, but also has been very good to know that I've learned this far ahead, you know. So I feel like these are the big things for now, you know, trying to translate the experience, relate to what can be found in the local market. And also just, you know, we don't— I didn't have the habit of, for example, keeping metrics of the work I've done in the past. So I was able to talk with, you know, ex-colleagues and former employers just to see, hey, by chance, does the system still, you know, provide a report of how much I did of this or that? Is there any quantifiables that I could get? And I was so lucky that my previous experiences, I still keep very good relations with those employers. So they were so happy to, you know, take a look for me in all of that. And I was, I guess, comfortable enough to ask. So just getting to, you know, gather all this data about my past in a way has been very interesting because, yeah, basically in my resume in the past, I just had more like general information and now I had to, you know, research it again on my own history to put more details and be able to explain it in a way that is more quantifiable and more easy to understand in other contexts. It's so interesting because I want to segue into sort of preparing to come to Canada and some of the emotional and practical things that goes into this moment in time. But you mentioned both the practical aspects and the emotional aspects, right? And I want to touch on both very quickly and then move to some questions. I think one of the challenges that many internationally trained lawyers, especially those who have over 5 years of work experience, but not in preclusion of individuals who may be Canadians who are trained internationally, internationally and coming to Canada. You all have rich, complex, mature lives, and trying to be distinct in a labor market and stand out while also not trying to shrink your experience but also demonstrating yourself as an eager learner is a real balance, and it takes a lot of work and time to finesse it. And so there is a balance between technical aspects of your application materials and also the emotional work of like really understanding and analyzing and keeping those relationships And as we think about both the practical and the emotional preparedness, let's start with the practical, because I think there's a lot that goes into preparing to move to Canada. So if you could talk a bit, Claudio, about being a lawyer, doing research, getting all your details, check— checking your facts. All of this is good regardless of what you're doing in your life. But I think, could you talk really about your practical steps about you've taken in preparation for moving to Canada? All right. Yeah, well, definitely. First of all, I had to learn about what, what was available, what were the programs that I could apply for. for, and that application has been sent like September last year. So you usually would apply for the program about a year ahead. After that, another practical point would be to get your visa, right? So a study visa or study permit, get that on your passport. So there's a little bit of a bureaucracy side to it, you know, going to another city, as I don't live in a capital that has a consulate or visa services. So I did have to travel to just go give my digital my biometrics, my picture, and all of that. So there's a lot of planning involved for sure. Just like going into the, the just a little funny details, for example, once you get, once you get an approval to go submit your biometrics and picture, you usually have 30 days to do that, or else you have, you, you, your application would be canceled, or you'd have to submit a letter of explanation saying, hey, I wasn't able to do it in time, for example. So there's just a lot of You know, little details and timelines you have to be aware of. Those are all, I guess, practical things. Besides that, you know, buying a plane ticket, looking into where you're going to live. Is it going to be on-campus housing or are you going to just rent on the side? Are you going to try going and staying a few days in one place or another? The GPLM has this flexibility of being on Fridays and Saturdays, and I know some of my colleagues live in other places around Toronto, but they they've chosen to just travel for the weekend, so they will stay at a hotel or at an Airbnb for just those days that we're going to have class. So just a lot of practical things in that sense. Beyond that, you know, it seems like it's somewhat simple, right? Just get your things ready like you would for any longer trip, or, you know, make sure you take something that is meaningful to you and that will remind you of home, for example. So let's get the details. What's the food you're packing? I'm really worried you're not going to get me. What are you packing? Tell us what's in your suitcase. Right, right, right. So one of the things that I'm taking, I'm from southern Brazil and here we drink a lot of mate, right? The yerba mate. So I've seen North America has already gotten some products that are like with mate extract or something like that. But just being able to make my own mate, you know, it's something that is very important to me. It reminds me of home. That's how we cope with the cold back home, so I'm looking forward to doing the same up in Canada. The little cup, the little straw that is special for it. So that, that little kit is something that I'm definitely preparing. So a whole suitcase full of yerba mate? Yeah, I'm, I'm making sure not to have it too full because I did check that Amazon does deliver some brands and all of that. So I'm taking like original brand ones for now, and hopefully I'll just repack with some, some that are sourced internationally as well. Wonderful. 2 quick points on the preparations too for, for your listeners. One is that if they are contemplating taking a program at a school such as ours or Osgoode, UBC, and, and more, to keep in mind that when you're preparing for your applications as an international person— so if you're Canadian, you can stop listening for 2 and a half seconds— but as an international person, And there are often, and I believe at those 3 schools, there are centers for international experience or something equivalent, an international student advising section. So be aware that that exists at the school, and you can reach out to them as you are preparing. They can provide— they have lots of resources online already. So know your rights, know what your requirements are as a non-citizen status in the country. And second, to recognize that Claudio shared his experience, but that that there are some conditions for different people from different parts of the world that may be different. So be aware of that. And I'm thinking especially for those where they don't have diplomatic relations, there are different countries they have to go to in order to secure their entry visas and study permits. So just to be aware that there are complexities different people from around the world may need to face. And so those are some of those pressures that are real. And being prepared and early and know well in advance that you want to go and be on top of what is required. Diplomatic relations change quickly and suddenly over time. So just to be aware of that. And we talked a little bit about the emotional— yeah, and a little bit about the emotional preparedness, i.e., the yerba mate. But I'm curious, like, what are you most excited about? What are you most nervous about? Well, if I may, there's something that I guess I didn't share on social media or anything like that yet. So like a first for those who are Listening to the podcast. So me and my wife are having our first child coming up this October. Congratulations! So definitely moving to a new place and starting a new program, starting a new life career in schooling in a way, and also bringing a child in the world. All of that kind of together has definitely felt overwhelming at points. So definitely on the emotional side, at points I was like, maybe I should Defer this, you know, get one thing done at a time. When I spoke to friends, they were like, wow, it seems like a lot of important things happening in your life altogether. Yeah, it's just a lot to take in for sure. But I feel like I'm just fortunate enough to have a good support system and I must acknowledge and thank my family for that. And I know how, how important that is for anybody who's going through, through these transitions, be it just, just moving to a new country as if that was a small thing. But having all of these things together, it's definitely even a, even a bigger change. So it's definitely something that I'm looking forward to, but that sometimes gets you awake at night, right? Thinking like, oh my gosh, what if it doesn't work out? What if it's too hard? And I feel like it's normal to many extents to, to think of those things, to, you know, contemplate failure and the possibilities that could go right or not. Definitely just very, very excited. That makes me even more excited, you know, to do my best and do everything I can to succeed and to you know, just have a good experience out of it. Not only the final one when the degree is all done, but also I definitely want to enjoy it all the way through from the beginning to the end. And I'm just very grateful for all the support, be it from the school, be it from, you know, my family more closely. But definitely all of it played a big role on making me feel, you know, emotionally safe in a way, you know. So I think those are some of the things to, to put into consideration for sure. Thank you, and félicitations. I think it's how you say it. Thank you, thank you so much. Congratulations, and we're so thrilled for you, and I guess maybe your family's first Canadian will arrive very shortly. But also to keep in mind that for students who may also be facing something similar, there are Family Care Office services in the schools where you may be considering studying, and also definitely you would not be the first to bring in a program baby. We have had babies every year show up, and sometimes it's the parent who's birthing the baby, and sometimes it's the parent who's witnessing the birthing. And either way, we just congratulate each and every one of you. It fills your lives so full and your heart. And so we're excited to, to know about this. So congratulations. Thank you so much. Yeah, I was fortunate to hear a couple episodes ago from Lilia, and she was pregnant through her program. So she, she studied at U of T as well, and she shared her experience. And I was just very happy to hear about all the support and help that are definitely, you know, very proactive from the school side, from the colleague side, and all of that. So I know it's going to work out. It's just a matter of organizing and getting ready, you know? As ready as you can. Children will— you'll never feel fully ready. I understand. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We were so happy to hear you connected with Lilia. Thank you for reaching out to that. And I think, you know, that you've touched on this multiple times, but Let's just discuss quickly, what are some of the key networks, supports that have helped you in this moment prepare for everything? Well, first of all, it was definitely reaching out to alumni, but not to any alumni. I would say some— what I ended up talking was with most of the Brazilian alumni, right? They would understand the experiences I've had in the past, the approaches I would take. So it was definitely helpful for me to reach out to lawyers that were in the same shoes that I am nowadays. You know, so, and they're just a few steps ahead of me in their careers. So definitely people who have gone through the process recently, who understand your background, that is very helpful to just help you to translate some terms, to help you to translate your experience in a clearer way. So absolutely, it has been my number one source of help. And then of course, the school has been helpful, all of the other like secondary resources. But I would say, get out on LinkedIn, connect to people, check their experiences, demonstrate genuine interest, and network. You know, not just network for networking, but also, you know, trying to see how our experiences relate and also if there's some value that you can give to other people's lives as well as you prepare. So if I could add those 2 cents, I guess, in a way. Absolutely. And I want to acknowledge networking is such a big term that is an umbrella experience, for many different aspects of building a professional community. We could do a whole like 14 podcasts on networking because it is so complex, but I want to just take a moment, if it's all right, Claudio, just to acknowledge— Absolutely. For everyone who's an internationally trained lawyer or law student coming to Canada, you may find that people keep telling you to network. And so I just want to say the following, that the way that you've learned to build your professional connections and communities in your countries is right and good and perfect. And when you come to Canada, it'll feel wrong and weird and awkward. Not for everybody and not all the time, but networking in Canada is a very distinct expectation, especially in the legal labor market, and that it takes a lot of courage, a little bit of practice, but a lot of courage to put yourself out there and build a professional relationship with somebody with whom you've had no prior connection. And so maybe that's something we talk about another time, but I just want to acknowledge that because people might say, what is this network? What do you mean? Is this like the wires that can connect into a motherboard on a computer? No, it's actually social fabric that supports your career and your professional development, your mentorship, and more. So I just want to say that because it might be weird for some people to think about it, and it is often still, for even current students, weird to go out and network. So listen. No, I really appreciate you taking the time to further clarify that because oftentimes we'll just hear, you got to network, right? How do you do it? How do you go about it? What are the not so often spoken of little rules of networking, right? How can you keep it being courtesy? And is it weird to reach out to a person out of nowhere and say, like, can we grab a coffee? So it's definitely— there's a lot of things to learn, and I'm sure we'll get the chance to discuss it a little more. But that was great. A great introduction. Thank you. Of course. And hopefully it'll be an awkward conversation. I'm really looking forward to awkward. Listen, I think we may have to close soon, won't we, Claudio? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so we make sure that our— Yeah, so, so yeah, that's all right. Just, I want to make sure that we, we keep in time. But I think maybe you have like a personal anecdote or maybe a summary tip list or things that you really want, like high level. What do you want your listeners to know about this particular juncture in their preparations as they are about to embark on a really exciting very rigorous and now a new human being brought into the world type of journey? Well, it's very interesting to try and say something wise at this point where I'm about to embark, right? But definitely I would say that as many other experiences that I've had so far, just keeping up with optimism research, getting to know details, you know, all those things, the more you can do, normally they help me out, giving me the peace mind I need as I go forward with new activities, be it starting a new job, be it going to another country, be it having children, you know? So all these things, I feel like keeping, keeping up with optimism, doing your research are always good tips that anybody can use in any circumstance. And I feel like I'm doing it myself enough where I could tell other people that it's worked out and I highly recommend it. So hopefully it's gonna continue taking me so far. Wonderful. And I would say that, you know, of all the professions, being lawyers, you already know how to read all your emails, action those items on the emails, conduct your research, fact-check, build your connections, and talk. And I think one of the most important things is know when you don't know and state that you don't know, and then ask for help. That to me is, I think, some of the most core qualities in any great lawyer, and it sets you up well to be a great legal student in Canada as well. So I think you've demonstrated that admirably, Claudio, and I just want to congratulate you and to thank you for this conversation today. It's been super fun. Yeah, thank you so much for your time and for embarking in this little project with me. I really do appreciate it, and I'm looking forward to discussing the other steps of becoming a lawyer in Canada with you in upcoming episodes. Thank you, Erica. My pleasure. Thank you.