Navigating New Beginnings: First Semester and Job Searching in Canada

Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. And today we'll continue our fun season within the season where I have the opportunity to be interviewed by Erica Bailey. Erica, would you be able to remind our listeners and those who might be listening to us for the first time what this season within the season looks like and sounds like? For sure, Claudio. Hello everybody. My name is Erica Bailey. I am the Graduate Career Advisor. I use she and her pronouns. I work at the University of Toronto and I support internationally trained lawyers and law students in our Global Professional Master of Laws and our Master of Laws programs. And when Claudio was incoming student in the summer, which for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere is sort of July, August time, he said to me, I'd like to interview you about some sort of career topic. And I thought, well, one of the things that we don't hear a lot about is the real lived experience of students and MCA candidates going into and moving through their own internationally trained lawyer experience. And I thought, what an incredible opportunity to have someone so warm and open as Claudio to share his own story. It's one of thousands out there. And also it's really great to hear the wisdom that you are continuing to build along the way. So I proposed a counteroffer, which was why don't we interview you so people get to understand you a bit more, but also to hear more about what that journey can look like? And so here we are on session number 3 of our conversations. Did I get that number right, Claudio? You did. Yes, indeed. That's right. Amazing. It's been, it's been really a fun ride. And for those of you who haven't had the chance to listen to the previous episodes, basically I recorded it before leaving Brazil and then a couple of months in and how, the experience was of getting to Canada and getting to start the GPLLM program. And now basically I'm halfway done. It feels like I'm, I'm done with the winter semester, but 5 subjects are done already, so I have only 5 more to go, even though there's still 2 semesters. So that's why it felt, it feels like, how is it going so fast? Yeah, it does go really quickly. And I think that's true for any internationally trained lawyer, whether you're doing the challenge exams or you are in a program like ours. Those first few months really are about getting adjusted and, and getting used to everything, including, you know, the activity of the regulated recruit, which is something that we discussed when we first had our conversation, wasn't it? Absolutely. That's right. So I think this is something that we talked about, but now that it's kind of all over or mostly over, I have an even greater view of, and it's such a competitive process, right? There's a lot of great candidates from all over the world. A lot of people who are doing their JD in Canada, a lot of people who are coming from the top schools around the world. And it's definitely a very competitive process, both for articling and summer. And it's just a lot to navigate, right? There's a lot of documents you need to write, as we spoke about briefly in the other sessions, but it's also a lot of navigating your own emotions and your resilience and a lot of that, because it's not only good news, right? So you want it or not, you go to an interview, you end up building a lot of expectations, right? You think that, oh man, I went to the first interview. I mean, basically, right? And then sometimes you get the news that, that, that was not quite the case, but it's good to take each of those opportunities as, you know, an opportunity both to feel like you're getting closer, but also to understand that it is a competitive process. And maybe each of these opportunities is a chance to train, to get better, to really exercise those skills that, that are expected for you to know once you become a lawyer. Absolutely. And I think, you know, juggling that alongside doing your studies is, is a lot given that it's a 1-year program and for many NCAs also. So they just want to move through their challenge exams at the same pace. But I'm curious, Claudio, I mean, surely, you know, I think people can imagine that you must have had some challenges along the way. How do you deal with that disappointment? Like it must have been hard at some point in time and how do you move through that? And because right now there's more information I know you want everyone to know, but let's talk about what it meant for you to move through the dark days of middle of the fall term while getting bad news. Oh, absolutely. First of all, it, it's something that puts you down for a little bit, right? We have to recognize that it's not easy to be rejected, right? To have somebody say, hey, you're just not a great fit, or maybe we received thousands of wonderful applicants and we aren't able to continue with yours. So receiving that in the volume that it comes because everybody kind of applies together, get those answers together, can really be a hard hit. I feel like what helped me to get really grounded were a few different things, right? So first of all, it was definitely good for me to be very informed about the process. I felt like I made informed decisions and I feel like every time we had conversations about the process, people were always honest with me. So my expectations were somewhat in place. So people were always telling me it is a competitive process, you know, and a lot of times just because of the massive amount of documents that firms review and all of that. Sometimes because of the way you put yourself out there compared to the rest of the pool, they just don't have the time to uncover who you are. You might be wonderful and a great fit, but it just doesn't work because of the numbers and because of lots of things you can't control. So it was good for me. It helped me to stay grounded, to have those clear expectations, to know that it was hard and to know to not take it personally, to know that not getting a callback for an in-person interview on Article in Summer, it was not a reflection of my self-worth. Besides that, family is a very important value for me and I had a lot of support from mine. So every call day, everybody was very comprehensive and maybe prepared an extra nice breakfast for me, you know, as we were just waiting those long hours while we were expected to get a call and maybe that call never comes around or somebody calls and say, hey, you've been waitlisted. So maybe yes, maybe no. Those, I think, were things that helped me to stand through it, but Of course, it's obvious that I had to go through the sadness and the feeling like, oh man, I thought I was so good and maybe I'm not that great after all, or what happened? You have a little bit of a moment of self-doubt and all of that. And I think that's just natural, the human experience of putting expectations in something and they maybe not turning out just the way you expected them to be. But it was a process of growth and a process to understand what it means to be a lawyer here and to go through it, right? It was definitely something that people just usually go through, you know, once or twice in a lifetime happily. So you don't need to, for that to happen every year. But yeah, I think those are, those are things that I can really recall when I think about my personal experience. I mean, I think you did the right things, you know, Claudio, you turned to the people who love you. You took time to really allow yourself to be sad and it can feel really hard, but those hard times actually teach us more about who we are when we are going to face more challenges in the future. And I think anyone who's listening in probably is a mature person like yourself, you already know this, but, you know, the challenges are where we learn a lot. And so I think you, you are evidencing what it means to really reflect, return to yourself, get grounded in what's good for you, whether it's exercise or family or, you know, a spiritual practice or going to a community experience. There's lots of ways to get grounded, but also making time to recover and then getting back into it. Thinking of challenges also at this time, you are also preparing for your final exams. And so acknowledging that Some of the listeners might be doing challenge exams with the NCA, others may be in programs like yours. Curious if you could talk a little bit about your sort of November, December time, what was going on for you with your exams and your job search? Could you talk a little bit about how things were in the last, so we're recording in what, end of January. So what was like November, December like for you as you were moving through your term? Absolutely. So it, it was a busy time. That's how I could talk about it. A few of the things that were happening then, uh, most of the classes were having reveals to say, Hey, this is what you should absolutely study for the final exams. This is what you should spend a little bit of an extra time on. We're all preparing for those exams. We had midterms already done by then. So we had more clear expectation of what exams would look like, what was their formatting, what kind of questions were given. But it was just around the time when the first few grades were coming out and we were starting to understand also how the grading systems work and how, uh, you know, those expectations kind of played out from the school side. So it was definitely a lot going on at the same time, which, um, in a 1-year program, that's how it's going to be for the whole year. But it was, you know, I think just as intense as people will normally say it is. So it is, it's challenging, but it definitely is doable. Like, don't rule yourself out when you're listening to this. Don't think you're not able to do it or anything like that. A lot of people did it in, in Way harder circumstances, so it's something that I must acknowledge. I had a lot of support from family at home, and with a newborn, it was a game changer to to be able to have that support. So I know that each person will experience it in a different way, but happily, I feel like it was a very intense moment. But once you're able to focus your time and attention on you know getting ready for exams and and all of that, it was you went through somewhat smoothly. By then, two other important things to mention is that just probably around the beginning of summer is when we prepared all of our. Application documents, our CV, and most of those important documents. So around that time is when we were interviewing for summer positions. I'm almost sure about the timing. And it was close to getting to offer day as well. And at first, we all got the chance to apply for articling positions. By that time, we had already applied to the summer positions and we were waiting to hear back. I was very, very fortunate to interview with a wonderful team and get the chance to receive an offer. So I'm very excited that I'll be able to work on the summer as soon as I'm actually, while the program is still going on, I was going to say as soon as I'm done, but actually while the program is still going on. So it's going to be very exciting. I'm very happy about that. Acknowledge that there was a lot of challenges on the road, but as I said before, it's important to stay grounded and for sure keep up a good attitude about it because nobody ever told me that it was going to be just super easy. So I think I had the mindset to be ready for that, and I think that was That was what made me be able to continue through the process. All right. I think you're right. I mean, we are quite transparent, certainly here at the University of Toronto, incredibly rigorous program, one where we have exceptional scholars that we were excited to welcome as a really like, not bespoke, but like really tailored experience that everybody gets to learn beside one another. And we always say at the beginning, it goes really quickly. It's going to be intense. And there's a lot of smiling and nodding, but I think once you're in it, you actually understand what that might mean. And it's not without its own supports. You know, as would be with any other school here in Canada, each has their own resources to support students academically so they learn their new Canadian study skills, and also that there are great instructors and a team of administrators there to answer questions to students. And I know certainly with the NCA candidates who may be listening in who are not in a program of study, also there's lots of communities like the NCA networks and the ITL NCA networks both of which offer great supports, mentorship and so on, so that they have ways to connect and talk about what it means to be navigating these challenge exams, especially because those are independent study. But I wonder too, you know, as students and NCA candidates are listening to this, you know, what tactically did you do to stay focused while you're studying? What did you do to manage to learn how to study in a Canadian context in such a rigorous program and also to continue to apply for jobs? How did you find a job, you know, what was the interview process like? So could you talk us through some of the actual tactical things that were going on and how did you balance all of that all at once? Absolutely. I think there's 3 main things that I wanted to mention. First of all, at the risk of being unfair and not mentioning somebody who was very important in the process, I do have to mention, just like Erica said, there's a lot of communities and for example, the Brazilian Canada Bar Association was so important connecting with peers, people who did the GPLLM before and getting to hear from them to Those personal experiences that they lived through, people at the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association as well, the CHBA. And besides that, of course, all of the help and support we received from the team at the University of Toronto Faculty of Law. So we have a dedicated team that specifically helps us out as GPLLMs. We have Erica working in the careers office with, you know, lots of resources with lunchtime hours, with, you know, all kinds of things really to help us out, to prepare for those interviews, to prepare for everything. We have the dean who is so interested in our lives and it's so wonderful. I don't know how she manages to do it, but it's just incredible. And then we also have advancement office who usually takes care of alumni affairs, but also is willing to talk with us. So I do have to thank Devra by name here because she's been helping me to connect with some alumni in some areas of interest. So definitely there's a whole support network there, I must say, and it's important to make sure that you Connect with these people who just want the best for you. And that was number one, right? But number 2, going on with your question, I feel like something that really helped me was really to have everything on my calendar. This has been a practice of mine for some years now to really organize my tasks and organize my life. So besides doing the GPLLM, besides looking for jobs for the summer and regulated recruits for articling, I'm also working at a law firm here in Toronto and I'm being a research assistant to a professor. So with all of these competing things and priorities, I have to use a couple of tools and at least that's the way I found it to be more helpful for myself. So usually I'll do my hours of work during the day and I'll have those kind of scheduled in my Google Calendar already. Some days I need to do some work in person. Some days I have more flexibility and can do it remotely. So, uh, I'll usually have all of that in my calendar in the end of the week. I'll try to put everything down for the next week, the events I'm planning to attend, the work, and the time for studying. Absolutely important for me to have that time close to exams, studying specifically for them. Before then, I have to read the cases. I have to read the materials. So that's something that has just really helped me to put down a time and actually stick to it. It's, it's helped me as a tool and absolutely has been the way for, for me to navigate to life with a little bit more ease and feel like I'm at control to some extent. So I think those things were really important for me. First, the background into knowing that a lot of people got my back and were there to help me. And also, you know, putting everything in my calendar and going through with those appointments. And then I think you asked also like, how did I get to, you know, continue applying for jobs? Where did I find it, et cetera? I think there's 2 main sources or where I was looking especially. So as students of the University of Toronto, and I'm sure other students must have similar portals, we have a portal with dedicated roles. So they will basically be uploaded to that portal and all the students get to see them and get to apply to them, sometimes directly through that portal, sometimes through a third party, through an email, et cetera. So I was always looking at those. Besides that, we also have the VI Law portal where the regulated recruit goes on. post of the official dates and all of that. And then of course, LinkedIn, it's been an incredible tool. It's been wonderful for me to meet people wherever I've been all through my career. So I'm a big advocate and big supporter of LinkedIn's work in connecting people and being able to just really have those connections happen in all areas of life. So I think those are the 3 main points that they really, I wanted to speak on. Going a little bit deeper on the work part of it and looking for jobs, I had already prepared a resume. Right on the beginning of the summer, but by the end of this time, by the end of the year for those summer applications and all of that, I got the chance to talk with career services, go over it again, see other things that I could highlight now that I was already here and there was some things to update on it as well. So what do we highlight? It's very much like a real estate, right? Like everything is like prime space and all of that. So you have to put the right things on the right place and all of that. So that was a big point, consulting and seeing with other experienced professionals, as well as understanding the formatting of interviews. If they were asking just about behavioral questions or they were asking more technical questions and how to prepare for both, there were different techniques, different ways to make it so that we all have wonderful stories, but sometimes it's just so hard to unpack them and make them simple and understandable. just learning a little bit more about storytelling, learning a little bit more about how to present yourself in a little bit more of a cohesive way that people in different cultures will understand you as well. So I think those are a few of the things. Did I miss anything? Is there something that I could dig a little deeper on? No, I mean, I certainly have questions for you, but you definitely thoroughly addressed all my questions. And in fact, many, I was, as you were speaking, I thought, oh yeah, you did practice your Interview skills. I think, you know, for the listeners, there are recruitments that happen throughout the year, and I think especially for internationally trained lawyers who are navigating new experiences here in Canada, a lot of focus seems to fall on what's called the regulated recruit. We discussed it at length earlier on, but it is really important to recognize, at least in Ontario, but across Canada, there are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of legal employers. They may not all be employing all at the same time. And while there is a regulated recruit that pertains to mostly government offices and large international and national firms, and that, and some public interest, but that all the time new jobs pop up and there is no one time that those jobs pop up. They could come up in a number of different ways. And so I think it's important to remind folks That if you feel like the regulated recruit's the only way to get a summer role or an articling role, that is not in fact the case, and that it's a yes and. Yes, there's a regulated recruit and there's lots of opportunities out there. And I think, you know, preparing for those interviews and going in for interviews, yes, there can be a lot of competition, but going in knowing that you know how to tell your story is really critical. And I think you really worked on that over the time, Claudio. And I'm curious because you did mention the advancement office, and I know that you do this a lot, but there's a role that networking has played. And I'm curious in relation to the job that you have been able to secure to the extent that you're able, how might networking have prepared you to apply, to interview, to understand the context? Was it useful? And if so, how did you go about networking? Yeah, that's a great question. And I love I love speaking about this topic. It's very interesting because in a lot of the firms that I had sent applications in, I had already talked with people. I felt like I had somewhat solid connections in there, but maybe those didn't turn out to be an offer. And after all, I realized that it was not, it was not a short time kind of game. Definitely thinking about networking, wanting to reap results soon, it might be for, I don't know, people who work in sales or something like that, but it's not the approach. For a career. And happily, I got to realize that early on in my networking efforts. I got to see that, you know, probably we'll be out here working for what, until we are at least 60, 70 years old, right? Our lives will be extended and our careers will likely too. So I was just thinking about that and thinking about how most of the connections I want to make, I don't want them to be just, you know, a conversation, a coffee chat about a specific thing right now, and then never get to talk to those people again. So that's the approach I did not want to take. And I felt like knowing these, getting to know people and connect with them helped me in that sense. I heard so many good pieces of advice. I've heard so much advice that maybe doesn't apply nowadays anymore, but I was so happy that people, you know, still took the time to share with me how it worked back when they did it. I did not know anybody in the office that I was hired in or had any like special connection to that place, but still getting the chance to speak to a lot of people I didn't know before, I feel like in a way helped me to become a little better on introducing myself or became a little better on being clear to explain my aspirations or this or that. So there was a lot of these skills that you don't get to practice unless you talk with people. And because interviews are usually with people you don't know, getting to connect with a lot of people that I had never met previously helped me in the very beginning. I talked with a lot of first-year students who were just one step ahead of me and were able to give so much valuable information. And I think that really when you're looking for the next steps on a career, that's the move to do. But I also, as I went through this project of meeting more lawyers, I got to connect with a few partners and with a few other professionals. And honestly, I got really nervous when the time was coming to meet with them because He was their secretary that scheduled the meeting. And, you know, I got to see a video of them speaking on YouTube when they litigated and presented a case before the Supreme Court. So it was a little intimidating because I was like, oh my gosh, like, I feel like it has to be a two-way road. And I don't know if I can add any value to people like that who are, you know, way farther in the profession. But I was so happy to connect with so many humble, friendly people. I know that might not be, you know, 100% of the lawyers. Certainly it isn't anywhere in the world, but there's just so many friendly people. And I felt like those that accepted my invite were those people that were willing to, you know, share a lot, were those people who have seen the benefit of mentoring in their own personal lives and they feel that they need to pay forward in some ways. I was so very happy to connect with so many very, very generous lawyers. As a matter of fact, I think the very first connection I had. I explained a little bit about what I was trying to do, and especially that this approach to networking. And I was so, so happy that this lawyer, what they did, they were like, you know what, how about I kind of like lead this discussion and show you how it's usually done so that maybe in the future, like this could be a good example of how to go about it. And I was, you know, so hit the jackpot with that one because then it gave me a good, you know, framework to work on when I was approaching other people. When we were talking for the first time. So I would say that, that was very helpful for me. It was helpful to, you know, get ready for interviews, not by just preparing for interviews with mock interviews, but actually by telling my story to other people, by maybe exploring nuances of my story that I had never gotten the chance to talk much about, but that just came up naturally in a conversation. So I think that in this way, networking has been really helpful. That's tremendous. Thank you. So in short, you recommend networking? Highly recommend it, 100%. And the sooner the better? Absolutely. I actually checked and I started reaching out to people May last year. So it's been almost a year if you, if you kind of think about it, uh, on, on how it's been. And I was so glad that a lot of people that I was able to connect when I was still in Brazil. I got to meet them in person once I came to Canada. So continuing those connections, keeping, keeping them alive is also important and meaningful to me. Yeah, and it's, it's important and meaningful to them as well. Keeping the connections alive is about the relationship, and the relationship is how law is practiced. We're always practicing how we do and how we agree on or not agree on relationship. And certainly in Canada, that is a huge part of the context, perhaps one of the hardest parts for some people, especially those who haven't grown up in Canada and is expected to reach out and connect with people. Um, I've spoken with a number of students from Brazil, but I know also many students from around the world. You find it awkward. And could you tell me like one thing that you found really awkward to start with and how did you overcome that? Absolutely. When, when I was first told that you should reach out to people in ask to schedule a coffee chat online. That was already awkward on its own. It was very interesting to see that this approach is done because I think it's so practical. It's so, you know, useful. It's very nice. It saves and respects both of the people's time and there's a lot of like very good things to it, but I couldn't see the good in it right away. It was a little interesting for me to reach out to complete strangers and say, hey, we share, you know, we are at a professional place that I want to be at someday, not necessarily the organization itself, but, you know, in your career at that step. And, and I'd love to learn more about that. You know, it just makes sense that that's how it's done. I think that, you know, if, if this is not done yet in many cultures, probably the future is that it's going to be done like that more and more. But at first it was, it was a little bit weird and I felt hesitant to send those first few messages because also I didn't know how, how people would receive me on the other side of the screen. I wasn't sure that I was going to be received with a warm smile and, and people kind of interested in learning about my story. At times, maybe I felt that, you know, people were really not interested in, in learning about my story and they just kind of have to do this. So those 20 minutes would be painful for them. But honestly, I couldn't be more wrong. I was very happily surprised. I feel like most people who will accept to, to go on a coffee chat, a virtual coffee chat, They will definitely, you know, take the time to guide you through it, to guide you and share their personal experiences. So that's really what's been meaningful to me. So it was hard to send those few invites to set it up at first, but it just got better and better with time. Thank you so much for sharing your story. And I think that that is going to be true for a lot of people, especially for those, again, not from Canada, but I will say anyone who's Canadian listening in and thinking about networking It's going to feel weird for them too, for different reasons. You know, I've heard people say, well, it's not morally right. In my country, if you have to do that, it means you can't do the job. Why? You know, I can't ask people for jobs. That's wrong. So there's lots of different stories that people hear. And also to recognize that networking isn't about asking for the job. It's about having curious, curiosity-driven conversations with individuals who are in areas that you also find interesting. And so it's great to hear that. Now, Claudio, some people are introverted. You probably are a bit more extroverted given that you run a podcast, but I think, you know, still you can say that for everybody, it could at first feel a little bit weird, but the sooner you start, the easier it'll get. Like any sort of new exercise, whether it's a thought exercise or a gym exercise, the practice of networking is so valuable. I think in part because you start talking about the that you are interested in, in the practice of law, which prepares you for interviews, for incidental conversations that may lead to a job. So as you're thinking about, you've got this job coming up in the summer and you've also got, you know, a full term ahead, what sort of insights or reflections do you have about what you've just come through that you think is important for your listeners to understand and what might you be looking forward to? In the coming months ahead. Absolutely. If I may just add quickly, I was pondering as you were talking about, you know, the skills and everything else that come with talking with people. And I believe that in the long term, most lawyers tend to become good at business development, right? Such a fancy word that usually means, you know, getting clients, being able to develop the business by, you know, advertising it in a way that, you know, you go to the community, you go to events, you're able to talk what you do and all of that. So I believe that networking prepares lawyers to be good business developers, accelerates that practice and accelerates the way that you can approach it because then you can find your unique style to do it. Besides that, something that I found as well is that as you're networking, you end up noticing that, you know, to some extent you have to be vulnerable to talk about your aspirations, to talk about, you know, your goals and all of that. And I know that a lot of people are very private, reserved, and don't really like to open up about that. But I've seen a lot of benefits from, you know, just being really sincere about what I'm looking for and real concerns that I had regarding the profession, regarding how things are noticed or seen. So it has, I feel like, that experience to it. The opportunity, maybe I should say, to show some vulnerability and to show, you know, maybe some other aspects of your career or true concerns. That honestly, more and more people are just normalizing. So we used to be very maybe taboo to say bad things about the profession, to say, you know, maybe not the profession on its own, but the way some things are done and have been done over the years. And I feel like people more and more are finding that they can, you know, along with their partners and along with their firms, also have programs related to that. We see the Law Society has initiatives regarding mental health, and so many other things. So it's definitely important that, that more people are talking and normalizing all kinds of different struggles that human beings going through this profession will experience. So it's, it's important. And talking about what I look forward to, I'm just starting and I just had these 2 wonderful classes of admin law and torts law. And we just had so, so many great cases to start with that I'm looking forward to to our next few classes. Our professors are so energetic and that gives you, you know, a boost of wanting to be there even more. So it's something that I'm looking forward to. And as I mentioned before, very much looking forward to the opportunity to work through the summer to get to, you know, be alongside more legal professionals and see what they do in the day-to-day practice. And I think that those are 2 really big things that I'm excited about as this semester starts. And as we go ahead with the new year. Thank you. And I know that we're probably coming close to our time, but there is a question that came to me as you were speaking. I'm imagining the Claudio 12 months ago, so like end of January 2024. You probably were thinking about the GPLLM, maybe other programs as well. You were wondering about coming to Canada. You were You know, with your partner, your wife. And so what advice would you go back and give yourself, if any? Maybe you might say, no, go and discover. I don't know. But if you could go back and, and I'm thinking about your current listeners, the ones who might actually be considering, do I go to Canada? Do I study in a program? Do I do the challenge exams? I'm curious, what did, what do you want past Claudio to know about? I love it. It's a year full of discovering things and figuring them out. And I think that going through this process is really priceless. But honestly, if I could give myself a piece of advice, I feel like I would have started networking even earlier. I would have started it right away. Maybe I've met enough people already and maybe in a lifetime there's not such a thing as enough, but just helped me more and more to, you know, have realistic expectations, to see how the process is done, to see how people like evolve in their careers, how this and that works. You know, there's just like this small little things like I clerked for a justice and usually in Canada when you clerk, that's connected to litigation. So a few, a few of the interviews that I went to, they asked me, oh, you clerked, but you want to be a transactional lawyer? Like how do you reconcile those things? And I didn't know right away that, that, that was something that was kind of, you know, the practice here that usually if you clerk, you are going to be working in litigation and these and that. So there's just these small little things about the practice of law that I got to learn. And I feel like you go through your whole life learning probably, but it was just interesting for me to learn that somewhat early on. And I feel like, you know, because I'm a little bit naturally eager and excited about things, I wouldn't mind having learned that even earlier, maybe It would even be something that I addressed in my cover letter as well, you know, saying like how I had this experience clerking and I enjoyed seeing how litigation works, but that also helped me to have the clarity to do transactional work. So anyways, it was just some other things. And if I were to write those cover letters today, I would write probably an entire different text. There's a lot of it that would be different, but You know, it's just going to be like that because I went through the work of doing that one time around. So I recommend living the process, enjoying it, and discover it as you go. I was one that would research and talk to people and all of that, but it was good that sometimes information came somewhat in a dosed way. I didn't get it all at once because it can be quite overwhelming. I'm very happy with the way things played out, honestly, but maybe just talk to 3 or 4 more people. Oh my goodness. Only Claudio would recommend that to his past self. Well, I thank you for answering the question. It's a weird question, but I think sometimes on reflection we can think about, you know, what might be useful for other people coming in. So I hope that, you know, when we next meet, I'm so curious what we're going to talk about, where, when it might be. It's, uh, the next term will probably be just as fast as this term. So I just thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you and listen to you. Thank you. Thank you all so much for listening and tuning into this episode today. And thank you so much, Erica, for donating of your time so generously and hopefully to the benefit of all future generations of students. Bye-bye everybody. Have a good one. Bye everyone.