Public Service, the Client Experience, and the Path to Practice with Amber Neumann

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I have the opportunity to be meeting with Amber Newman. She has a wonderful story. She holds a JD from the University of Toronto. She has a certificate in mental Health law from Osgoode Hall Law School, and she has worked in several different institutions from being Crown Council and Adjudicator and also for having a position at the Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee and now with her very own law firm. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today, Amber. Very excited for a chat today. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Absolutely. And she started conversation. I'd love to ask you to introduce yourself to your listeners. So who's Amber today and what also guides your working lot these days? Well, I'm, I'm Amber Newman, I, I'm in Ontario lawyer and I describe my practice as being sort of focused on the intersection of psychosocial disability and civil litigation. So this usually looks like matters having to do with substitute decision making and questions around consent and capacity. Most of my work is about property rights, like about stuff about money, about the things that you own your assets. But I've also had a fair amount of experience looking at these questions in the context of healthcare. And as you mentioned at the top, I sat on the consenting capacity board for a while. So, so that's what I do. I, I do psychosocial disability and civil litigation. I don't get into criminal like I just do the civil litigation. Amazing. And can you, can we go a little bit more of what does psychosocial disability mean to start with? Ooh, that's a good question. So it's, it's a very deliberate choice. I say psychosocial disability instead of mental health or mental health issues or mental illness. And that's because that language reflects a shift from the medical model to to a right space model. It's certainly not of my making. It's something that aligns with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of persons with Disability, for example. So when we say psychosocial disability, we're recognizing that a person's challenges don't exist in isolation. It's not in solar, certainly not solely within their own mind. It's shaped by social, legal, environmental barriers, stigma, discrimination, lack of support. And that can disable participation and autonomy just as much as the condition itself. Rather than framing a person as somehow impaired, the term acknowledges that there's this interaction between the individual and society. And it calls on systems, including the legal system, to those those barriers. So that that's why I choose that phrase. That's why I choose to speak that way. I see. That's so interesting. And speaking specifically about that and thinking about all the roles you've had in different capacities specifically on this area of law, are there such things as, you know, lawyers have this common mistakes or common misunderstandings about capacity, consent and the client experience that you've seen repeatedly? And maybe is there a few things that you've noticed quite a few times that maybe we as a profession can do better? Oh, that's a good question. I mean, there's so much to talk about, there's so much to unpack. I don't know if I would, I would, I would call it sort of mistakes or errors that we're making. It's just, it's an interesting and unusual area of law. So there's lots of stuff to unpack and look at. I think if there's one point that I would want to get across, it's it's at capacity just isn't a fixed label. It's, it's fluid. It depends on the nature of the decision. It depends on the moment in time that someone might have capacity for one purpose but not for another and it might fluctuate with time as well as other factors. So the test for capacity to instruct council, for example, it's not the same as the test for capacity. And Mary, and that test is different from capacity to manage property and that's different from capacity to make personal care decisions. Each test is different and it's context specific. So the questions are different, the relevant evidence is different. And I think that's a piece that I that I do often see. We really do have to bring the evidence that is relevant to the issue at hand and that meets the questions of the test that we're addressing in this circumstance. As lawyers, it's really important to be alert to the difference in this test and to understand that that difference really matters. Yeah, I think that's what I would say. The biggest thing that I would urge us all to always think about when we're coming forward with these proceedings is to think about the actual test for this circumstance, for this context, and ask yourself, are you bringing the evidence and is the evidence relevant to this particular test? Fantastic. So Ember, as we mentioned before and as you also did in your introduction, you've worked across the public sector for quite a significant part of your career. And I'd love to hear a little more about what was that experience like and maybe even what drew you to the public sector in the first place. So I've worked in like this sort of third sector in every way. Like long before I, I came to law, I did nonprofit project management. I, you know, I have worked in Canada, overseas in the States. I worked for universities, I worked for governments. That the common thread though, has always been that sort of third sector kind of approach when I think about what drew me to public service. So my sister this resource development and operations management in the nonprofit sector and I do this. Both of us agree that the biggest factor in our choice of career was probably our mom. She was a hippie. She was an activist. She was a community nurse. She would call it a street nurse. And it's really, it's really relevant to her story actually this year that she died of 51 from the complications of addiction. She she was an uncommon woman with an absolutely fascinating story. She, you know, went from small town Ontario, traveled all over North America. We used to joke that she would sooner move than wash the dishes. You know, I went to 13 different schools from from kindergarten to grade 13 at the time. Actually, you know, we start the 13th grade here in Ontario and Ontario. So in any case, my mother never met a stranger and she had the like the deepest, most visceral compassion for everyone, but especially the marginalized. She would often bring people home because they needed a place to be or something to eat or a warm place to land for a bit. And yes, this was as unnerving to us as children as you imagine it might be. But she was always really motivated by by love, by respect. She saw peoples humanity in a way that capitalism would have us overlook. And so while neither one of my sister or I grew up to be as hands on as our mom, we really both took her message of not giving back. I don't think don't think that she would see it that way, but of sort of fully recognizing that you are an integral part of your neighbor's humanity and that we are all bound to one another. This is the number one message that my mother left with us. And if I'm honest, I do think this is probably what informs my career choices and hopefully my life choices. That's amazing. And, and thinking about this motivation and thinking about the career you chose as well. A lot of our listeners at this moment in the podcast, our young lawyers or law students still trying to choose which area of law they want to work in and still trying to figure out the whole thing. And it's always been interesting to me as the host to ask a few questions that I get asked when, you know, in events or when I'm talking to some of our listeners as well over, you know, messaging and all of that. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you today is, is what kinds of habits would you suggest for young lawyers who are starting up their careers and who are, you know, trying to develop really good habits to grow and to really find that satisfaction in the profession? What are a few things that that you would point out from your experience? You know, I have to say, Claudio, I feel like I'm not qualified to answer that because I was never a young lawyer. I was already like my, my 40th birthday was in Humira before I started law school. And I was always so amazed by my colleagues in school, the incredible discipline, the way that they were able to approach their work absolutely astonished me every time. I don't think I could have done it, to be completely honest. I don't think I could have been successful. I don't think I was ready at all for law school at their age, the way that my colleagues work. So first of all, I'm going to say I've, I've got no notes. I have no, no. So I'm, I'm very impressed. I was very impressed with my colleagues at law school. That said, I think for all of us, all of us as lawyers, no matter what age we are, when we start, we are hoping to be good at what we do, maybe even hoping to be excellent at what we do in moments and hopefully to enjoy and find some fulfillment in what we do. I, I'm not the type of person who thinks that life is your, that work is your be all and end all, that you spent a lot of time doing it to not enjoy it or get any fulfillment out of it. A lot of us spend more time at work, for example, than we do with our, with our families. So when I think about what habits I might suggest for, you know, sort of growing your skills and your judgment, I think the number one thing is to work on your emotional intelligence to as a friend of mine says, to always be working on your wisdom. It's good to be intelligent. It's good to be smart. It's good to be accomplished. Wisdom takes time and experience. Wisdom can't be purchased off the shelf. You really have to build that and hone that. And when I say wisdom, I'm talking about really being able to see the people in the story, to understand that almost no one is irrational. The thing that they're doing, the choices that they're making, are rational for them in their context. And as lawyers, maybe even hopefully one day judges, we are wise to be able to see that, to stand at just a little bit of a distance, to be able to look at the human beings in the story and their context and say, what's going on here, What makes sense here? How did we get here and what is the fairest and most reasonable way to get to resolution? I think everything else will learn, will know, you know, yes, you should study the laws. You should understand the laws. You should have good work habits. You should figure out how to manage your time, all of these things. Of course you should. But honestly, if I think about it, the biggest thing is to understand that this wasn't that. I can think about this as a human profession. This is about the conflict between human beings. So you must, you must, you must develop that emotional intelligence. You must, You must. You must develop your wisdom. That was quite unique. I really appreciate you mentioning that. And I think that, yeah, that that's something that I want to write down and take to heart. I love that. Working on your wisdom, I don't think many people have used those words before. So it's I'm very glad that I get to interview you and to hear your advice. And then you you also mentioned about having a career before law. So that that is that is a think a case that people are still looking for information. And I feel like what I try to do with the podcast is to have, you know, a place for you to do for you to get a little bit of information to make informed decisions, be it on the recruitment process beyond the career choices you make as a lawyer, but not only as young lawyers, but also as people who, you know, change careers. So I was curious to know from from your experience maybe are there are a few things that you would like to tell people who are looking into a career change and maybe considering law for that they should know before they're apply And even how how you see your prior industry experiencing becoming a strength in this field? Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, everybody's got their own path, right? So I can't say that, you know, what worked for me makes sense for for other people. I'll share a little bit of what happened to me, a little bit of the choices that I made in the hopes that it might be useful for for someone else. So, you know, at 42 years old, and I know people can't see me, but this is relevant. A 42 year old woman of colour, I found myself sitting, you know, in the first year class at U of T Law and, and how did I get there? And a 42 year old woman of colour who was raised in chaos and poverty, I should probably say as well. So it was interesting. Brief Notes Grew up in a really chaotic sort of household, and you know it. Also, you know, I love my mother. She was wonderful. She was incredibly uncommon woman, but we had a very uncommon upbringing. Dropped out of high school. I married somebody I'd known for six weeks when I was 18. I had three children one after the other. I was divorced by the time I was 29. I was a single parent for 10 years. In that time. I decided to try to get myself a university education. I was living in Windsor at the time and you know, big shout out and props to Windsor. The town itself was very affordable at the time. So I could, you know, work at Starbucks and wedding banquets and halls and stuff like that part time to put myself through school while also sort of trying to continue to feed these children who have children have an increasing insistence upon eating every single day, sometimes several times a day. It, it, it can really expensive. You know, I had part time work to do that. I mean, I've been working before that, I should say I had a, I had built myself a, a nice little career in nonprofit project management. So I worked for, you know, small International Development agencies in, in Canada. I worked for a university in the state doing in the state, sorry, in, in, in Detroit doing managing a project that had to do with barriers to care for people of colour living with HIV. So, you know, I had lots of interesting experiences. I went and I lived overseas for quite some time. When I separated, I took the children. We went and looked in Cairo for awhile, which is a story for another day. And when I came back, I was working, as I said, for that university in the States. I decided that I wanted to go to university and I did sort of worked part time and, you know, got through that. I did well and I enjoyed it. I then went and worked for an international law organization in Egypt doing sort of project management. Again, I realize working with those lawyers that I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to be part of that conversation, but financially it didn't seem to make a lot of sense to to me, you know, a legal education is not as financially as accessible as as we might hope it could be. I eventually came back from there. I was working for the city of Toronto on a homelessness grant. It was really, really interesting. We were dealing with street people who were St. homeless and all of this sort of it really highlighted for me the social marginalization that is a part of that. And very often again, we have this sort of common thread of how the law could work for or, you know, very often against people in that circumstance. Wait. At a certain point, I actually got married again. And that made it possible at the moment to think about going to to law school. My now husband had graduated from UFT. He was a big, you know, sort of supporter that I should go. We got married. We went on a three-week honeymoon. And when we came back, I was as dissatisfied with my job as I had been before I left. And so I, you know, made the decision to take the LSAT, see if I could apply to go to school. I applied to University of Windsor Law, Osgood Hall at York and U of T Windsor didn't accept me. And I'm still sad and bitter about it. And Osgood accepted me and I was very happy about that. And a few weeks later, at the beginning of January, I got a call from UFT. Wasn't it wasn't my first choice. My partner really encouraged me to do it. To be honest, I didn't feel like I would feel in place or welcome. I was wrong about that. But my main reason for accepting at UFT is because at the time, my, my teenage son was dealing with some fairly major health issues. And I often would have to go and, you know, deal with doctor's appointments or emergency things at that time. And so it occurred to me that if I was going to FT, I'd be right downtown where we lived and I wouldn't have to miss a whole day of school in order to take my son to the doctor. So there we go. That's, you know, and So what am I saying with all of that? It's the twists and the turns. I've had three or four different careers. They've all been very interesting, they've all been very rewarding. And even though I was coming from a position of poverty and scarcity, I feel really fortunate that I was. I've always been willing to to take that chance to try something different. I've always been willing to go ahead and see what's around the next bend. I'm not saying everybody can do it. I'm not saying everybody should do it. I'm saying if you're out there and you're listening to me and you're wondering should I go ahead and take that chance? All I can tell you is that I did. I have every single time and every single time it's been worth it. I have no regrets. So I think that that's, that's what I say. I can't say what's best for you. I can only tell you what has worked for me. And if you're listening to me out there someplace and you can hear me, you can find me on LinkedIn, you can find me whatever. Reach out, call me, send a DM, say I'm not sure if I should take this leap and, and I will tell you, yes, yes, you should. Go ahead. Life is short and you should you should live every minute of it until you're done. That's amazing. I really appreciate you saying that and I'm sure it will be a great motivation for many, many of us listening to this episode going from these really motivational high, you know, way of the episode. I also wanted to come into another topic, right. So so you did mention that civil litigation is one of the things you approached. And then we talked a little bit about, you know, being a reasonable and trying to find really a good path to solve conflict. But I understand you've led and and help with, you know, decisions of cases that were really, you know, high stress settings. And as we have been talking in a way throughout this podcast, we as lawyers are are a whole human being, right? So even though we love to think about the idea of, you know, have your professional self and your personal self, we are one whole being. I wanted to ask you kind of like in this, in this personal sense, then what practices maybe help you, you know, with these managing the stress, you know, being able to keep empathy even though going through, you know, a big volume of cases that sometimes might might seem like numbers and and even avoiding burnout. Wow, that is an excellent, excellent question class. It's so important to think, to think through this. So I think what I wanted to do is, is share a little anecdote. When I was an articling student, I was reading a file, Whatever, I'll spare you the details, but there was something in those facts as I was reading was I was just deep into it. I was sitting in the office in that sort of cubicle, that articling student pod that articling students have. And I could hear suddenly I realized in the distance I could hear sobbing, like gut wrenching sobbing, just thinking, Oh my God, like I thought it did, you know, started in the back of my mind. I could hear it, hear it, could hear it louder. I thought, Oh my gosh, who's crying? And I'm not exaggerating when I tell you it was me. I hadn't even realized it was me. And I was sobbing that deeply. One of my there were four of us who were articling. All of us were women all and this is the time of in person. So everybody was there. They really stood up and wrapped around me. One of them was a trained social worker. She came, she sort of stood me up. She picked up my sweater off the back of the chair. She wrapped it around my shoulders. She's walked me down into the elevator. We went down, we walked around the corner and she just walked with me and held space for me until the emotion passed. That woman is still a councillor at the Office of the Public Guardian and trustee today. And she, you know, I, I still have so much respect for her. So what I'm saying is what I took from that moment is how important it is, as you've said, to fully recognize that we are whole human beings. You don't ever want to be the person who witnesses some somebody's team deep trauma and pain and not have that effect. If that's where you're at, you're not OK and you shouldn't be doing this job. I'm just saying that flat out, we are whole human beings. We are going to experience a range of emotions. What do you do with that? I think it's so important to acknowledge that sometimes it's going to hurt to see it, to allow yourself to feel it so that you can process. I think that piece is important and it remains important for me. So I would say nearly 10 years down the road, what do I do with that today? Over time, I've come to understand what my personal triggers are. I now know what type of facts are likely to really push those buttons. For me. Sometimes that means letting that file go and give it to somebody else. Sometimes it means, OK, I know that I can't pass it on to somebody else. I know that I'm going to have to deal with it, but then I, I, I've learned to leave space for myself to say, OK, do what you need to do. Get the love and support that you need in preparation. Go through it, do the work. And that piece, that piece of emotion that's there in the back of my mind, I'm able to say, hold on my love, let me do what I need to do and I will be back for you. And I do, I honor that and I respect that, you know, and I give myself space for that afterwards. And so I'm, I'm not here to tell you that, no, it's not going to, you know, I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to be upset. I'm going to, you know, compartmentalize my emotions. And that's how you're efficient. I, I just think that that's garbage. I just don't think that it's true. I think that it's so important, as I said, to see it, feel it, recognize it, as you've said, to recognize that I'm a whole human being and to make space for, for that. I would say, you know, everybody's got their, their, you know, their Wellness things. I guess a few years ago, I, I was traveling, I'd done yoga lots of times before, but I've never tried yin yoga, which is a more internal kind of thing. Popped into a class And for me, it was really transformational. It, it had a huge impact on my ability to guess, learn to sit quietly with myself, to allow things to pass without holding on to them. And I, and I've just really been able to, to use that and develop that as a tool for myself as well. And after a couple years of practice, I actually went last year, I spent some time over in Egypt and in the Sinai Peninsula. It was beautiful, it was restful, it was peaceful. And I did a training to qualify to be a yin yoga instructor myself. So I continue to to do that. I continue to learn, I continue to practice, I continue to teach. And I just think it's if you've got the space and you know, I've got many children in and out cold dogs. I don't have a lot of time or space, but I still feel it's important to carve out some space for me in the space that I carve out for me is, is in that, that teaching in that practice. So I guess those are the two things that I would that I would offer. Again, they work for me. I don't know if they work for everybody. I love that I feel like getting the chance, you just hear from other people's experience can definitely informs in future decisions. So it's always, I feel like it's always helpful and I appreciate you being so open about that. Now, if I were to ask you about, you know, looking back into your story and your career, I'm wondering is there one or or a few specific points that you could point out as, you know, turning points that shaped your career, that shaped your path? And then maybe what are some things that you've learned from it and that maybe continue to inform your legal practice today? I think about turning point. No thing that really sticks with me is that in the second year of law school, I did not like the first year of law school, did not enjoy it was completely ready to quit and then I did this like I really, really didn't like it. The only reason I didn't quit is because I was embarrassed. Only reason, only reason I felt like we paid the money and everybody knew that I was going to law school and how was I going to tell them that I put that that was really the only reason I didn't quit. I had managed to get a summer job at our school's legal clinic, which is called downtown DLS, Downtown legal services. That is one piece that I would say really change my path. It is only because I did the DLS clinic as a case worker in the summer after my first year of law school that it wasn't only that it wasn't my first and last year of law school. The only reason that I continued to go back in September was was because of that experience there. It felt very practical and real and hands on. It felt that the things that I had to bring to the table had some value in that. In that context, I felt that I could be useful. And then after that, that fall, actually, my old career called me. A colleague tapped me to ask me to come and help run a project for the United Nations Development Program in Libya. So the, the initial sort of revolution had, you know, the fighting had largely settled down and judiciary, judiciary had reached out to look for some assistance and support as they were sort of restructuring themselves. I've done some judicial management and support in Egypt before. So a colleague had called me and asked me to come to Libya and do that work. So I was there for a bit. I ended up having to miss the second semester of year 2 law school. And as we know here, like a law school is not like courses that you can pick up here and there. You have to like do it in its in its in its pieces. So since I've missed that second semester, I came back like 3/4 of the way through this semester and time on my hands. I didn't have something to do, and I don't even know how it came up, but I learned about this. Osgood's continuing professional development program had this certificate in mental health law. So it was like several different modules that went on over several different weeks. It was, you know, give me something to do. So I went and in one of the modules, a woman stood up to speak and she was a lawyer with the Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee. And she was talking about things that I had never even considered. My mind was blown when she was talking about sort of property rights. And I, you know, I really began to see and because she explained it so well, really for one thing, the importance of money, you know, when, when, when you're living with the, with the disability, poverty often comes with it, you know, unfortunately. And the work that was being done at the PGT helps protect those rights, whether it is an interest in an estate, whether it's having a, the household and, and getting the money for it, whether it's, you know, qualifying for OSP or other sort of entitlement programs. At the end of the day, getting somebody the money that they need to be that is that they have a right to, to be able to, you know, improve their quality of life. It really touched me. It hit me hard. And I knew for sure that that's where I wanted to do my, my summer, my, my, my year 2 summer. And hopefully where I wanted to article. So when it came time to doing, oh, I should point out that that lawyer, by the way, is today the actual public guardian and trustee, her name is Sydney Peterson. She's absolutely amazing. So in any case, I, I knew that this is what you know, lol. I had no interest in anything. I just wanted the PGT. That's all I want. I studied for it like it was an exam that doing the resume and then getting the interview. So I would say that that probably was was a pivotal point learning even about this area of the law and through Sidney Peters, learning about the public guardian trustee and what it would do. And again, like the, the work is there in in many other places, not only the PGT that's doing the work, although I certainly love the way that they do it. But just just the idea that there was this sort of, as I said, the intersection of psychosocial disability and civil litigation or property rights. That was a real turning point for me. Learning that it existed in his really informed what I've done ever since. That's fantastic. What a story. Thank you for sharing that wrap up today's episode. Like, why don't you ask you? How do you find joy and purpose in the profession today? And maybe even what small choices can lawyers make each week to keep that sense of meaning alive? I mean, I find joy and purpose because I find the word joyful that has a purpose. You know, I'm not, I'm not doing stuff that I don't think is interesting or, or valuable or has meaning. And look, I know a lot of us do. A lot of us, a lot of us feel the pressure to do a job that doesn't feel like that. And I've been there. And I understand that. Believe me. Working at a banquet hall in Detroit to put myself through law school did not have a lot of joy or meaning. I'm sorry. To put myself through undergrad didn't have a lot of joy or meaning. But you know, you do what you have to do. But if you have found yourself in a position of a certain degree of privilege that truly being able to practice as a lawyer is that it's important to maybe not accept the blinders that sometimes the profession might have. You think, you know, there there is a little bit of the culture that says, you know, there's only one way to do it, right? And if you know, if you don't, if you're not, you know, I don't know, full service Bay St. firm. And I know lots of people who are working there and love it. They're great people and great lawyers. Please don't get me wrong. But it's not for everybody. And the idea that there's only one path, it's, it's just not true. So, you know, I would say, how do I find purpose and joy? Because I do something that I find purposeful that brings me joy. And I have made the choices and sacrifices to put myself in that position. So there's that. What are the things that you can do? Or to feel that you're sort of keeping that sense of meaning alive. Look, more than anything else, one of the most amazing things about being a lawyer is that you are paid for and expected to provide your independent advice. It is your brain, you know you you have to exercise your judgment. At the end of the day, the buck stops with you for that reason. If you don't approach it that way, you're probably going to be unhappy. You must. You must. You must, as a lawyer, develop your own independent judgment and voice. I'll say it again. You must develop your independent judgment and voice and start early. Find a practice that makes sense to you, that has meaning for you, in a place that makes sense for you. When you do that, you'll be able to pour yourself into it in a way that allows you to build a career that is joyful, that is meaningful, that that makes sense. And again, life, if you're lucky, is long. Do not spend a great amount of time and effort, you know, beating yourself into the ground doing something that does not, you know, create some sense of joy and purpose for you. If your life and what you're doing is not doing that for you, you know, you have to ask yourself why. And I know I can hear, I can hear the people growing saying, oh, it's not that simple. It's not that easy. Believe me, I know. Come talk to me. Your girl knows life is not that simple and that easy, OK. But I also know that there are choices to be made, and the reward is there when you put in the work. And the reward is there because it's internal, because you reward yourself with that joy and that sense of fulfillment. That's it. That's my Ted talk. Thank you so much for joining me in the podcast today. Thank you all for tuning in and listening to this episode. Thank you so much class. Have a great afternoon. Thank you.