Choosing Your Field in Law with Bruna Kalinoski

Hello everybody, thanks for joining another episode of Studying Law Around the World. Today we have the opportunity to listen to Bruna Kalinowski. She will be sharing with us some insights about choosing which area of law you want to follow through your career. She is a lawyer in Canada, and I'm so excited to hear her insights and get to know a little bit more about her. Thank you so much for joining us today, Bruna. Of course, my pleasure. Well, to start this episode, Bruna, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit more about yourself? We'd love to know a little bit about your journey and how you became a lawyer. Well, so my path, you know, in law was a bit of an unusual path and very different from, I would say, you know, what most people, you know, choose their profession. So I never actually thought I'd want to do law at all. My first attempt at getting a professional degree was actually going through dentistry school, so very different, very different career path. But, you know, I think the inflection point for me was really to start thinking about, you know, what a day in the life of a dentist would look like. And then the moment I realized, like, that being a dentist would feel quite lonely, I kind of realized that, you know, that was just not for me. And made it— really made me realize about what I wanted for my professional life. And, you know, I definitely wanted a dynamic profession, a stimulating profession. I also definitely wanted to, you know, help people, but not in a doctor-patient setting, which again, it's very different. So yeah, I think after a lot of thinking and really learning about myself and my personal preferences, I decided to, you know, just drop out of dentistry school and pursue law because the thought that I had about lawyer life was the ability to do, you know, great work, interesting work, and especially like help people in a moment of stress, which is something that I find very rewarding to this day. So that was kind of how I ended up in law. That's incredible. That's incredible. Thank you so much for sharing. And maybe going into the specifics of this episode, what drew you to the area of law you're currently working at? So if you could tell us a little bit more about your area, if I'm correct, you're an IP lawyer mainly. And we'd love to hear about how you became an IP lawyer. How does that work? Yeah, so today I practice the field— the field that I practice in is intellectual property law and technology law as well, and, you know, with a focus on, you know, dispute resolution. So focus essentially litigation primarily. That's primarily my practice. Obviously, in this role, we also do a lot of, you know, opinion work and consulting work for clients as well. So it's not exclusively litigation or dispute resolution related, but it's, you know, I would say primarily the work, the type of work that I focus on. And, you know, choosing this field of practice, choosing intellectual property law and technology law, it was, you know, more of a process, and I would say a long process for me. And it started with me really ruling out, you know, the areas of practice that I was not interested in, that I did not want to develop a career in. I definitely knew early on that I wanted to specialize, you know, but I wasn't sure about what field of law I wanted. So I think I'd say my decision process involved a lot of due diligence and seeking guidance from mentors and from people in the field, people who were already doing what I wanted to do or what I thought I wanted to do, just to try and seek to validate my understanding of what I thought intellectual property was, what the intellectual property practice was. And, you know, same thing with, you know, technology law and that field of practice. And obviously that due diligence kind of involved me attending, you know, as many related events as possible and conferences and colloquiums and anything I could do during law school to get a better sense of what intellectual property, the intellectual property practice was. Wow, that's incredible. I'm happy to hear that. I was thinking as I prepared for this episode, what were some things that we could tell our audience or people who are especially in law school and are thinking about specializing. In the lineup of episodes that I have for this season that focuses on the Canadian job market, I have some people speaking about what does it feel like, or what does it— does a day look like in the life of in-house counsel. I have some, some different perspectives, and I would be so happy to hear from you if you could share with us what factors do you think would impact the most in choosing an area. You said very well the importance of, you know, the due diligence, the getting to know people, the mentorship, and all of that. And I'm sure that's so important, but what would you say to other lawyers who are currently in law school or thinking about what to do when you have no experience or little experience? Is it worth it to try anything to rule out, or would you recommend maybe already going into a field specifically and trying that out right away? What are some of your thoughts on that? Yeah, so I think in terms of, you know, the factors that really matter in making a decision like this, um, you know, was obviously choosing a field that you like, that you enjoy, that you find stimulating, and obviously also choosing a firm, a law firm where you feel like you're gonna have a lot of exposure to those areas and to that type of work that you're seeking to do. Obviously, it really matters when you have— when you're working with a team that you like, so with people that you feel, you know, are, you know, are into the things that you're into and, you know, that are doing the work that you want to do as well. And I think all of those factors will help you make your career sustainable in the long run, which I think it's the most important thing for a career in law, because if there's one thing everyone knows about this profession is that it involves working really, really long hours, and you're like always on the go, always doing something. Obviously, yeah, there's some level of stress that you should be able to manage as well. It can be, you know, demanding and stressful at times. So I guess the point is making your career sustainable is key, and To achieve that, to be able to make your career sustainable, the factors to consider are really, again, picking a field that you find stimulating. Having fun while working is key. And I heard that so many times in these past years, including early on when I, you know, doing my LLM degree and taking courses with judges and, you know, senior practitioners in Toronto. This was the number one practice tip that I received. Which was always try and gauge the level of fun that you're having while working, because this is the critical aspect of your practice. You should be having fun while doing it. You're going to become better at it if you are having fun. And if you're not, then you should be probably, you know, trying to switch gears and, you know, look for something else, I would say. So again, so picking a field that you find stimulating is an important factor, having fun while working and, you know, really liking your team and your law firm. We are lucky, very lucky, I would say, here in Canada because of how dynamic the legal market is. So it's very, very easy to move jobs and move firms if you feel like, you know, you ended up somewhere where, you know, it's just not the ideal fit for you. So It's pretty easy to move jobs, move firms. And I find that this is really encouraging because, again, it allows you to be responsible with your career and your practice. And again, knowing that you should be having fun and should be enjoying this work. If you feel that you're not, then it's time for you to go and look elsewhere for, you know, other opportunities. So again, we're lucky in Canada that we have that. And the legal market is very, again, dynamic and there's tons of opportunities to do different work all the time. So if you're not, I would say if you're not self, a self-motivated individual, which is totally fine, not a lot of people are. So it's just important to try and understand what motivates you. So, you know, a lot of, again, self-learning goes into, into this and, and, um, that plays a big, big role in choosing your field of specialization. I, I, I feel, I think so. Alrighty, that's great. Thank you so much for sharing. Moving on to, to our next question that I think would be nice to share with people, and, and we'd love to know what you think about this. From what I've been speaking to people, be it law students or early career people, it seems like there's— the economy changes every couple of years and we can't predict or do much about that. And it seemed like some areas end up being in need in some years and Some other years, you may really want to be a lawyer that is specialized in this area, but there's no demand for that. So that can present a possible, you know, issue or concern for law students, especially if they are already thinking about specializing. So there's that pressure to choose a field that is in high demand as you get closer to graduation, of course. And I was wondering if you'd have any kind of advice for somebody who's facing that dilemma. if you think that— I love that you just shared how dynamic the market is, and maybe would it be worth it to start your career in something that is maybe not the best and ideal situation for you, and maybe eventually moving there as the economy and the situation allows? I don't know, would you have any kind of advice for somebody who might be facing that? Yeah, I mean, I feel like as a law student, you likely, you know, won't have had, you know, a lot of experience, a lot of exposure to those areas that you're considering to explore and to get into. So again, very, very limited exposure to actual work, right? So it's challenging to feel that pressure of having to pick up a field right out of law school, fresh out, you know, very junior lawyer. So obviously it's very challenging given the limited work experience that you would have. So I think my number one tip would be to try and take that, you know, take that pressure off your shoulders and make peace with the fact that, you know, you don't have enough at that point in time to make a very informed decision. With that in mind, you should feel comfortable going with your, you know, going with their gut and starting from there, right? Because again, as I said earlier, the key thing, the critical thing for you to be able to do decent work, good quality work, and build your reputation, develop your reputation as a professional, is for you to really be enthusiastic about your work and I feel like the only way you're going to be able to genuinely do that is if you like what you're doing. And obviously things will just happen when they have to happen. And if they have to happen, they will happen to you, for you. And if you are facing a dilemma like that, I would say go with your gut, go with your passion. At any point in time, if you feel like you need to, again, switch gears and And move into a different direction, you're going to be able to do that with guidance from people, from mentors, from people who are doing what you want to be doing. So I wouldn't just allow that pressure to build up, and I would just take it easy at the start in terms of feeling like you have to make a choice immediately. That doesn't have to be necessarily how it works. That said, again, I want to To hit a point that I've made before, which is always go back to understanding that, you know, understanding what a sustainable career in law requires. And obviously it requires you to be enjoying yourself and having fun, as I said, but it also requires you to be content with how much money you're making, right? And the reason for that is it's hard work. It's a lot of work, a lot of hours, and obviously feeling comp— feeling rightly compensated, uh, plays a big role as well in, in like making it sustainable in the long run. So lots of factors to consider, but again, fresh out of law school, I would say just take it easy, be curious, you know, take on as much different opportunities as you can to do different work and, and go from there. Already amazing. Considering these things you're saying and And I guess you've, you've been an associate called to the bar quite a few years now, right? Do you have, you happen to have any experience from your career that kind of reinforced, or, or maybe does that happen with you every couple of months that you're like, oh wow, I really chose the area that I like and I really chose the area that really makes me have fun and, and all those things that you mentioned? Is there any kind of experience or is there any moment that you constantly Uh, get you to have that feeling? Well, I actually feel that, you know, feel that feeling every single day. And I'm lucky in that sense. You know, I feel really fortunate that I have those experiences every single day in my practice. Obviously it's a mix of, as I said before, working long, long hours and, you know, uh, feeling the pressure and the demands of the clients all the time as well. But for the most part, it's, you know, again, having those moments where I do feel reinforced in my decision. And I think I can summarize those experiences simply as, you know, my real keenness to, you know, throw myself into each file and legal issue and really just, you know, caring a lot about the work that I do. I think those feelings, uh, kind of, uh, in this approach to my work, I think those are just— those reinforce the fact that I am where I was supposed to be and that I chose the area of law that I— that is like the right area of law for me. And I feel like if I'm going to give you like specific examples of why the IP practice and technology practice is fun would be, you know, It's stimulating. You get to meet a lot of great clients and great professionals, including dealing with experts, and you're sometimes interviewing with, you know, Nobel Prize winners and, you know, people who have done, you know, incredible, impactful work around the world. And, you know, it's just very dynamic and you're doing something different every single day and learning about a new technology, a new invention, you know, something new that someone made, invented every single day, which is always very interesting. So you're essentially really at the forefront of innovation and seeing how the world is, you know, developing in that sense. So those are one of the reasons, those are some of the reasons why I find intellectual property law and technology law particularly interesting. Awesome. Well, Bruna, now I'm afraid that everybody who gets to listen to this podcast will want to be an IP lawyer. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised. That's great. That's great. Well, I just really loved what you said first about being open-minded in the beginning of your career to kind of do that natural shifting, if that's the case. From, from what I gathered so far, as people join a law firm, for most of the cases, they, they get the opportunities to be in different teams, have some kind of rotation or being in a specific team. So it seems like it's, it's very dynamic in the way that you can find your passion as you do work. And I think that's the better way, right? As you experience it and all of that. Yeah. I think keeping in mind that your first years as a lawyer, if you're lucky to be at a firm, at a law firm where, you know, you will have a variety of different experiences and different clients, different files, different subject matters. So that if you're lucky to have that type of start for your career, then you shouldn't be too concerned about making a choice early, early on. And especially not before, you know, just going through, you know, stage, that initial stage of like, you know, doing your summer placement, your articling placement. And this is one of the things that I, I, I really came to appreciate after my move to Canada and after I decided to start over my career here, the fact that, you know, those 10 months of articling placement and another 3 months of summer placement. really, really help you in, in, you know, making that decision. So yeah, you're very right. Fantastic. Well, taking, taking all of that into consideration, I always— I also feel like there's something else that you touched on as we spoke earlier, and you— I feel like you talked a little bit about mentorship and the role that those, those people can have in your life. So if I may ask, what role do you believe that mentors and also networking have to help people really find their right field or, you know, get there with the right attitude? Is there something you'd like to share on that end? Yeah, I think I'd say mentorship and networking are really essential because, you know, the legal world, at least in Canada, I would say not the legal world, but the legal community is fairly small, especially compared to, you know, the legal community in Brazil or elsewhere where we have so many more lawyers as compared to, you know, this, the number of professionals, legal professionals you have in Canada. So it's a small community and you want those people who are doing the things that you wanted to be doing. You wanted, you want those people to be there for you when you have questions, when you, you know, when you need to understand, you know, ins and outs of whatever field you're curious about. So it's very important to develop those relationships with mentors, internal mentors within your own firm, external mentors. So, you know, people in the academia, in your law school, your colleagues, your law school colleagues. So yeah, Really key, essential to develop relationships and nurture them and be, you know, really genuine and caring about, you know, those relationships. You know, ultimately what you also want is not only the guidance of those people who you've developed relationships with, but you also want them to sponsor you in your career, right? So there's a difference in— sorry, mentorship and mentoring people and sponsoring people and The difference is essentially when you have a mentor and when you're in a mentorship relationship, you know, you will have all the guidance that you need and, and, you know, you, you will be able to learn from them about different paths and you will receive advice and, and practice tips, anything you really that you feel like you need at, at a particular moment. of your career. But sponsoring someone is different because sponsoring involves you having someone who will be saying great things about you when you're not in the room, right? So those people who are going to be thinking about you, who will have you like top of mind whenever a network opportunity come up, and then, you know, you will want those people to think about you for the particular opportunity. You will want those people to be again talking about you, talking, you know, saying great things about you when you're not in the room. So that's why it's so, so important to develop those relationships like with mentors and to do as much networking as you can. And again, developing and nurturing those relationships, because ultimately what you want and what you need in this profession is to have people sponsor you as well throughout your career as you go. Wow, that's incredible. Thanks for bringing that distinction. I've heard a few things like that before about, you know, really being around people that will say your name in a room full of opportunities. And I was so happy to hear that distinction of a mentor and a sponsor. Thank you for bringing that to the show. Of course. Yeah. And moving on, another question that I was curious about is, you know, were there any challenges that you would feel like somebody would have right away as soon as they, you know, okay, I'm starting out, this is my chosen field. Did you face anything particular? Did you maybe second guess on the first few months or as soon as you chose it, it was kind of, you know, confirmed. Day by day as you got more familiar with the work, as you got more, you know, you mentioned you did all the due diligence necessary. So I feel like you really knew what you were getting yourself into. And the more you do that, I guess the more of a confirmation you have. But I mean, did you have any specific challenge or anything that you had to overcome? I think, I think the most natural challenge with, you know, choosing a field of practice and, you know, specializing in any, any area. So the most natural challenge really relates to, you know, um, the extent of the technical knowledge that you don't have versus what you do have. And at the beginning, you, you barely have any technical knowledge in that particular field, right? So you're really, really learning. And I think You only knew— sorry, you only know things at a very, very high level. I don't think that after you make a choice to, you know, pursue a particular field, I don't think you're gonna, you know, catch yourself like second-guessing yourself too often. And I think the reason for that is because, you know, again, you know things at a very high level and then as you go, as you progress in that field, you're just going to be like taking deeper and deeper and deeper, deeper dives into it and learning more and more and obviously becoming very knowledgeable about all of those, you know, technical and conceptual things that you didn't know about before. So I think I don't— I just I think it's, um, the challenges definitely exist because again, it's, it's really difficult to, um, to persevere when you feel like you're ignorant, like really learning the ropes and, you know, obtaining knowledge. And so it's, it's difficult in that sense. It's challenging in that sense. But at the same time, it's very rewarding in that, you know, as I said, as you go, you're going to be taking deeper and deeper dives and, you know, learning those things that you— and finding time to learn about those things that you wanted to learn from the start. And obviously you didn't have, you know, the opportunity, the ideal setting, the ideal, you know, the right people to teach you those things. So I would say it's more— It's It has some challenges, but I don't, I don't feel like any people— sorry, I don't feel like anyone choosing an area of specialization would be second-guessing themselves too often, just because I think once you start that path, in that path of becoming an expert, you, you, you will rarely find time and say, oh, but what if I was doing this? What if I was doing that? Because, you know, you're just You're gonna be learning a lot as you go and, and it will just become more and more interesting for you and you will feel more and more empowered by the knowledge that you're gaining. So yeah, I think that's, that's my 2 cents on, on challenges. Yes, I, they will be there. You will definitely stumble upon them. They're not gonna become, you know, they're not a big thing, not something that will stop you from like persevering, I don't think. Wow, that, that was so good. I feel like we could definitely, if we were to have a, you know, SparkNotes version of this podcast, there would be still a lot to, to think about. So many topics were touched on. Thank you so much for, for sharing those, those tips, really, uh, Bruna. You, I guess, first of all, convinced everybody that IP law is so good and then gave all these valuable resources that people should be focused on continuously, right? Getting, getting mentors and maybe getting those mentor relationships to be genuine. and to become sponsor relationships. You talked about networking, doing your due diligence to find the area of work you want to be in. So thank you so very much. Is there any maybe final piece of advice or like a wrap-up you'd like to leave with our listeners today? I think, well, I'll leave you with just a few final thoughts then. I think first of all, it's again critical to be open to exploring as much as you can. Early on in your career. So in your junior years and during law school, try to learn as much as you can about the different, uh, the different areas of practicing law. So that will help you in the future to make more informed decisions about your career and where you want to take your career. Um, and again, of course, this is much easier when you're in your first like 2 or 3 years when you're into the, you know, 2 or 3 years into your career, uh, and you feel like you still have time to, to change if you need to change. You know, take your time, but at the same time, don't take too much time. So that's one of the reasons why I always tell people, and including my mentees, that if you're— if the early years of your life as a lawyer are really, really intense and busy and, you know, you feel like you barely have a personal life, it's probably because you're doing it right in a sense that those initial years, first 2, 3 years, they're so critical in, you know, again, helping you make informed choices, informed career choices in the later years of practice. Yeah, those are you know, 2 things that I wanted to mention. And, you know, I guess this is a similar point, which is try to make sure you're undertaking an exploratory journey in those initial years. So just be open to learning about, you know, many different fields and understanding— try to understand what may be a good fit for you. Then also you know, talk to a lot of people, try to get a lot to know a lot of people, a lot of different practitioners in the field, not only in the field that you're interested in, also in other fields. And my final, and I think most important point, is just make sure you're asking a lot of questions from lawyers about how it is to practice in that particular field you're interested in. So yeah, ask a lot of questions and Try to make sure you're asking the right questions that will really help you make the most informed decision going forward in your career. Those are my points, I think. Oh, wow. That was very, very good. Thank you so much. I hope you guys had your pen and pencil, paper, and wrote some notes. And if not, please make sure to review the podcast episode today because it was filled with so much good stuff. Thank you so much, Bruna, once again for your time and willingness to join us here today. Of course, my pleasure. Anytime. Thank you guys for tuning in, and I'll see you all in the next episode.