Tips from a Professor on Succeeding in Law School with Richard A. Haigh

Hello everybody, welcome to another podcast, another episode of Studying Law Around the World. And today we have the opportunity to receive Professor Richard Haigh. He will be speaking a little bit on insights from a law professor on thriving in Canadian law schools and giving some tips, saying some things from the perspective of, of a professor. I think this will be very valuable to us, so please help me in welcoming Professor Hay. Thank you so much for coming. We're thrilled to have you here today in the podcast. And to start things off, could you share a little bit about your background and how you became a professor? So, okay, thank you for having me. I, uh, well, I went to law school in Canada and did my law degree, and I, at that point, I, I assumed I would become a lawyer, uh, although it was— nobody in my family was a lawyer. I had friends who said, oh, lawyer is the thing to be. So that, that was, that's how I decided to go to law school. But, and it was in my second year of law school, I think, where I thought, hmm, I actually think those people standing up in front of me in the class teaching me are, is more interesting than any practice of law could ever be. And so I started to think about an academic career in second year law school. And so immediately upon graduating, I did my master's at Cambridge. I did my under— my— sorry, I didn't think I mentioned, I did my law degree in Halifax at Dalhousie, then went and did my master's at Cambridge. And in those days, many professors just had a master's. You didn't need anything more than that in Canada. But It was just transitioning over. And so when I came back from Cambridge, there were no academic jobs available for me. And so I did practice for 3 years, didn't really want to, but did. And then I got an opening at Osgoode after 3 years of practice. And so I started teaching at Osgoode in— I'm at the end of my career. It was 1993. 3 when I started teaching at Osgoode. But it was a, it was really a sessional position. I just had, and I had that for 3 years. And then I got a, I applied just out of the blue. I applied to a teaching job in Australia, and I got a phone interview in 1996, and I got hired. And so we packed up and moved to Australia, and that, that's where my real career in academia began, because I was there for 5 years. teaching and researching and writing, and then came back to Osgoode in 2000 and basically have been there ever since. And then I did, late in life, about in 20— well, 2007, I started my doctorate at University of Toronto. So I was continuing to teach full-time, but I also got my doctorate. And that's where we are. And my, my area of interest is really constitutional and public law. That's, that's where I do my most of my writing. But I teach basically criminal law and constitutional law and a few other things sometimes. Yeah. So there, that's a quick bio of me, I think. Oh, fantastic. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. That's That's quite interesting. I'm glad you, you were able to, you know, follow what you wanted after all. And that's quite incredible, the, the back and forth from Australia, and you, you got to see quite a few continents in your career then, huh? That's right. And I, you know, we were very close to staying permanently in Australia. Loved, loved Australia. I liked the law school that I was teaching at, but it is isolated. It's a long way from home and family and friends. we're here. And so we eventually decided to come back, but it was a good 5 years. And then I have contacts and friends still in Australia that we stay in touch with. So that was good. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, for those listening to us today here, I heard about Professor Hay about 2 years ago when I was going to Osgoode as a visiting researcher, and I found out about his podcast. So he hosts a podcast himself. But then, back then, he was in a sabbatical, so we weren't able to talk really when I was over in Canada. And now kind of like returning to Canada and also making a season about the Canadian legal market and Canadian law school. So it just, it was just a good timing to reconnect. And I was happy to hear that your podcast is out again. So would you share with us a little bit about how that began and How fun has it been for you to do that? Yeah, it is a fun— it's a non-academic podcast. I don't know if people know about it, but it's called What's Law Got to Do with It? And it's really— the idea is it's a little bit about— well, sorry, it's aimed at prospective law students and maybe first-year law students who arrive at law school and really just have no idea what to expect. What's what's it all about? What are you going to be doing? And so it— and I have a co-host who's a student, and the co-host and I have a guest every episode. And usually it's a, you know, it might be a student I know or a student they know. It might be somebody who's applied to law school but hadn't got in. And we just talk about some of the pitfalls and concerns and give some tips. on how to manage those, especially the first year of law. I think once you've, once you've gotten through that year, it's usually pretty straightforward for people. But that first year is, it's so different and new. And, and I just think there's not enough out there about how, you know, what it's, what to expect, right? Yeah. So that's, so yes, and we try, I keep it light. It's not a, as I say, it's not an academic Podcast at all. Fantastic, fantastic. I, I feel like we are in some way uniting and converging in that mission. And in my podcast, I've been trying to do a little bit of like, what should international folks expect? So whether you're an exchange student, whether you're doing an LLM, and now finally got here to the Canadian one in particular, and kind of getting into that, this is the focus of this season. So talking about what Canadian law school and legal career looks like, and to kind of kick off on more specifically these topics, we, we really wanted to hear from a professor's perspective, right? Because we heard from people who took the, the LLM programs or people who did law school. But it's also good to hear who's on the other side, right? And it's always good to hear what's there to say from a professor. in terms of what do you expect of students? You know, would you, would you be able to share some things with us about, you know, I don't know, academic performance, participation, overall engagement? Are there some, you know, basics out there that you could share with us today? Yeah, it's a, it's a good question, but the answer is probably too long for this, this podcast. But I, you know, I think so. Law school is, it's hard for a lot of people. And because part of it is you don't, nobody, nobody really knows what it is. And you have all these new things coming at you. And the— and what makes it hard, particularly in Canada, and I think the US is like this as well, but the, the grading is done on a curve. So you— it's, you know, people who arrive at law school typically have done really well. They're mostly A students, right? But suddenly, some of them will get Cs because there's a forced curve. And that's hard for people to accept, I think, sometimes. And it's very competitive. Osgoode typically, and again, most other Canadian schools are similar, has approximately 10 students apply for every 1 position. So the classes that are incoming are very strong academically. It can be competitive, maybe in a healthy competitiveness, not necessarily a nasty competitiveness, But it means that, you know, there's some students who will get those A's and then, and many others won't. And that, I think, is hard for some people to take who've done well prior to that. So that's one thing. So, so as a professor, I don't know if I really have an expectation of students because partly I have to grade on the curve, at least in, you know, in the classic courses I do. I expect students to do the readings, and that's another thing I think people don't realize. There's a lot to read, and it's not nice. You're not reading, you know, you're not doing an English degree where you get to read a novel or something that's actually fun to read. Some of the things are not easy to read, and they're dense, and they— and they're, again, it's a different kind of reading. And so one of the things that I expect is students to do the readings, and yet at the same time, I understand that you have 5 other or 4 other professors, and we all try to— we load things onto students, and sometimes it's almost impossible to make, you know, to do all those readings. So the other thing you have to be is very efficient. You got to be smart in your studying, and I think that's another thing that's probably you know, will be new to a lot of students, no matter what previous degree you did. You just haven't really had that, the experience that you get at law school. And in classes, I, you know, I like to have an engaged classroom. I like to ask questions. I like to get students to participate. But in, at least in large lectures, I don't grade that participation. So it's really just to keep the classroom interesting and flowing to do that. But in smaller seminars, you know, participation can be very important. There can be a significant component of your grade can be participation. So, you know, that's another thing. Some students are very reluctant or shy and don't necessarily like to do that. And you have to get over that. I think if you're— if you want to be a lawyer, you pretty much have to get over that. That's That's what lawyers do, right? So, yeah, so I don't know if that— was that sufficient of an answer? No, that, that already helps a lot. That already helps a lot. It does give a little intro to it, and I feel like many people who are, I guess, not from North America, or even depending on what you did in undergrad, it's kind of a new concept for the Socratic method as well, right? So it could, could be like a new style of a classroom as well. But, you know, I, I believe the things you just mentioned, just do your readings, get ready to engage, those can already be very helpful to those imagining the scenario right now. Yeah. And the other thing I would add to that is, so do your readings is one thing, but understand your readings is probably more important. I think that I, you know, I do get students who say, oh, I did all my readings. And so, but then you test them, you can say, well, you know, you ask them a very what I thought is— I think is a straightforward question, and they can't answer it. And you say, well, did you really? Yeah, you've got to read it again. If you don't, if it's complicated, if you don't understand it, you need to somehow keep grappling with it until you do understand it, because it's all fine and good to say you've done the readings, but you really— it's about comprehension is more important. That's right. That's right. Yeah, I feel like from, from getting to listen to your podcast, a lot of students will mention things like the, the series you watch on TV, right? And I, I guess you, you get a lot of Suits, you get a lot of Legally Blonde. Yeah. Those are always mentioned, and you know, they kind of give you an idea, but it's a, it's a bit different in real life, as, as one would expect. Yeah, I know. I— it's funny because I do ask that question just for entertainment value, but nobody should ever think that the practice of law is what you see on TV. It's never like that. And so, yeah, and especially, well, and most of those shows don't really show the law school experience, right? They're all the legal practitioners' experience. And law school is a bit different. Again, Paper Chase is really much still the only show where the law school was the focus of the, of the show. And I don't even know if people can watch that anymore. Maybe YouTube. Yeah, just kind of going into that, just, just for a quick segment here, you always get to ask the students about it, but I don't know if you've ever been asked that before, if you have a favorite, like, legal show or a legal Series? I have never been asked that and you're putting me on the spot. I am old-fashioned. I think Paper Chase, because in a way it models what I do. I'm not like Kingsfield, the professor in that show, but that's my environment. Again, it's not realistic in some ways, but it's still a great show about as good a show as there is about going to law school. All right. Well, I, I haven't heard about it before, so I'm gonna have to make sure to watch it. That you— yeah, I, it's definitely, there are segments available on YouTube, but I don't know if the entirety of every show is. Anyway, you can, you can check it out. I, I surely will. I surely will. Well, going forward on the, on the, the same aspects we were talking about, is there something specific after all these years teaching that you notice, like specific habits or practices that normally you can tell if a student will succeed in law school if he's doing those things? Can you somewhat like pick that out when you get to meet some students when a new cohort comes in? Yeah, and I, you know, there's always students that do well that I have no knowledge that they're doing because I don't really get to know them, and they, but they write a good exam. So those ones I can't really speak to, but they're oftentimes the one that the habits that I see that I know translate into sort of into doing well are, well, we kind of already talked about a bit about them, is to make sure you, you're thorough and you, you, you do your readings and you understand everything and you prepare. Prepare for preparing in advance for class to me is almost always a good indicator of success. People who don't prepare and then try to cram at the end, some will do well, but it's, you know, it's really, it's, you're pushing your luck if you try that. So preparation's important. So staying on top of things as long as you can and not get overwhelmed is a good habit. And then the only other thing is, I, the other thing that I think people don't realize in law school, law is a lot about communication. It's about especially written communication these days. You know, you, you have to be a good communicator. You have to be a good writer. And it doesn't have to be fancy writing, but it has to be clear. And the people that do really well on certainly on exams and, and, and the longer papers are, have honed their writing skills and So, you know, I don't know. There's a lot of different undergraduate degrees. A lot of students come to law school with different varying backgrounds. If you, if you haven't done much essay writing, it's, or if you don't read much, you know, as a, as a, as a hobby, I think, I think you have to work on writing, probably. I, so I, I mean, I did science, I did engineering before I did law school. But I, because I knew I wanted to do law school, I took all my options. I took were paper options where I wrote papers. And I'd always, I grew up in a family where books were important. So I read a lot. And I think that, that helps. It helps if you can communicate. In our case, in English, but you know, if you're in Quebec, in French or wherever. But writing is, is, is, people don't realize that. that the writing— you can have the, you can have the greatest ideas in the world in your head. You can understand case law. You can, but if you can't put it down on paper, you're— it's going to be difficult to do well. Well, that makes sense. And, you know, kind of going forward on what does doing well mean, right? You know, there's a lot of the grades in law school, but then it kind of goes forward to the next step of it. on a career. And I guess, especially now with the podcast where you have— where you get the chance to stay in touch with some students even more, what have you also noticed maybe that has— that students have done to make themselves more attractive to employers, or, you know, that helped them to get that space for more of a career perspective? I know that that might be limited from, you know, staying in being a professor, but sure they will ask you to write rec letters and all these things, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I do every year. I have, I think I'm asked that and I'm happy to do it, but it's another good question. It's very, you know, I'm gonna sound old. I think every old person would say this no matter what generation you are. I just don't, I don't know if I would get a job these days with what my background was at the time when I graduated. students seem to be doing so much more extracurricular things than I ever did. And that, you know, I think probably a lot of them think that that's what the market demands, right? That employers want to see you do well in law school, but they also want to see you doing things outside of just studying for law school, right? So, and law schools Certainly ours at Osgoode, but I think most, most Canadian law schools have so many things that you can do. You know, there's clinics, there's volunteer clinics, or there's clinics for credit. So you can do that. You can help. Some universities have a— or sorry, sorry, some law schools will have a clinic that helps other students in other faculties who need, you know, help with grade appeals or anything where there's a process and there's a policy or a law that you have to follow. Law students are good at that. Or so doing those kinds of things, or volunteering in the community. Again, the need— the needs are obviously so great in so many areas, and law students are very— again, they have certain skills that others don't have. So doing that, or doing moots. Again, at Osgoode, moots are largely extracurricular. I think you may get some small credit for doing a moot, but most of it is You do it because you want to hone your advocacy skills or what have you. So all of those things I think are really important these days to help improve your resume or make it more, you know, make it more broadly— well, employers are going to look at those sorts of things these days, maybe more so than when I graduated. I think when I graduated it was really just marks that they cared about. And even then, I don't— I mean, there was— there were so many jobs available, you didn't even have to do well in law school to get a job. But I think it does— it is harder now. It's more competitive. So that would be one thing. And then the other, you know, I always think that some people, some students of mine who think that they want to be a lawyer, I try to— when I— especially if they're really academically inclined, if they write really great papers, I will try to steer them, you know, have you thought about grad school, or have you thought about doing something a little bit different from what everybody else is doing? Because you have a, you know, you might have a really unique set of talents and skills. And, you know, you might want to think about not the traditional path of a lawyer. So I try to, you know, try to help students out in that sense as well. All right. Oh, that's cool. That's very nice. Just out of curiosity here, what would be like the normal path to become a professor? Would you go from a JD on to doing like a PhD, or what would be the normal path these days? So there's probably 2 normal paths, if you will. One would— yeah, you basically, you'd have to do some graduate work. So And I think I said before, in my day, LLM was usually all you needed. I think most— so frequently nowadays, you need to do both an LLM and then a doctorate, PhD or SJD. So that's, that's a kind of fairly common pathway. Then the other thing that if you do really well in law school, and if you're very lucky, you can get a clerkship at either, you know, a very high-level Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court of Canada. And a clerkship combined with an LLM is usually sufficient to get people academic jobs. And then the other thing is you do what I did, which is, again, in Canada, it's very difficult to get academic jobs at the top universities. Osgoode, U of T, McGill, UBC, in the big centres for first time. Those are hard. So you have to be prepared to go somewhere else. So I went to Australia, but you could go to smaller law schools in other provinces as a stepping stone if you want. So that's another thing, just to— you do have to be prepared to travel, I think, as an academic. Like you are doing. Yeah, studying law around the world. It's been fun, I can— I must say. Already incredible. Well, is there, you know, moving forward and also trying to give a little bit of a humane side to all this information? Because most of it we can really find on the internet, but it's always fun to get to hear things that are you know, beyond that, beyond those basic ones, is there any, you know, personal experience or story from your own academic journey that, that you'd like maybe to share with our listeners? Well, I'll just, I'll riff on my, what I said at the beginning, which is I, we went to Australia, and I think that to me, that If we, if we had, if I hadn't done that, if I hadn't gone away to teach in Australia, I'm not sure I would be in the position I'm in now. It was such a great opportunity. And, you know, it seemed daunting to pack up and move to a new place. But it turned out to be, I really think, one of the better decisions I've made. It was a great experience. It— the dean, when I arrived— so I arrived just before the term began, and the dean had hired me over the phone. And then, but when he arrives, and it's about 2 weeks to the term, and he's driving me— he put me up for a couple days in a university house while I, you know, had to go and find a place to live. But On the drive from the airport to this temporary residence, he says, oh, by the way, I, I'm going to need you to teach Australian constitutional law. And I, I hadn't— I had no idea. I, and I had 2 weeks to prepare. And I, you know, I, Canadian constitutional law was my thing. I knew that Australia was close to Canada in some ways, but I, you know, constitutional law is as much about a country's history as it is about law. So that was, you know, I was thrown in at the deep end. And that to me, again, it was a great experience. It was frightening and it was stressful, but I really learned how to, first of all, how to teach something that you don't know, how to stay ahead of the students. And I got to learn about a brand new topic, Australian constitutional law, which was which was good. So that to me, I don't know that— I don't know if everybody would want an experience like that. But those are the kinds of experiences I think that are the, you know, where you really do— it builds character, you learn a lot more, all of the things that they say when you're really pressured. There's something about that, those sorts of situations that you cannot replicate in any other way. That's awesome. That must have been quite remarkable. And, uh, I, I've, I've became quite acquainted with this thing of moving around and all of that, and, and that does take a toll on you, right? Because you gotta— there's so many things to figure out when you first move to a new place. There's housing, there's all the, all the bills you can figure out and connect and etc. So it must have been a little stressful for sure. Yeah, and you're right though. Those things you don't even think about, right? Then they're not really, because they aren't really what you think you're there for, but they take up a lot of time and effort. And yeah, all of that sort of, you're a fish out of water for a while. You're learning how to live in a different society. It's, it's good. I think it's a healthy thing to do. I would recommend everybody do it. There you go. Meet you. Meet you. Yeah. Well, and that's good. That's good. Going on fish out of the water topic kind of thing. There's, there's a lot going on recently, right? On just— there's always a lot going on in the world, of course. But I feel like in the last 2 or 3 years, the big trends on AI, and then I guess from the last year onwards with the generative AI. accessible to everybody and all these different, you know, little things. As a professor, is there any, like, recent innovation or trends in legal education that you've found particularly exciting and that, you know, you've been able to incorporate or, you know, just see being used and find it interesting? Well, I think that you're right about AI. I think AI is going to change, transform the practice of law, probably as much as anything that has come around in the past little while. Whether it transforms the legal academy in a way, I'm still— the jury's probably still out. And I'm, as I said at the outset, I'm nearing the end of my career. So I don't really worry too much about those things that younger academics might have to deal with. But I, you know, we just, well, I think one of the things that's happened during the pandemic is a transition to online learning versus in-class learning. And I, you know, I, I started, this is going, I'm having to back up a bit, but I, one of the things I did in the Early 2000s, 2010s. And so it was— I taught in Osgoode's professional development program, and they were at the forefront. They, they were doing hybrid forms of learning way back in 2010. So we would do— we would have a graduate class where, you know, 10 students were in the classroom in front of me, or— and I would have 10 more students online. So I, I learned pretty early that kind of teaching methodology. And most of my colleagues didn't do that, and they had to sort of cram and learn it when COVID took over. So, but, and I still think there are advantages. I, I much prefer online or in-person teaching. I have to say, I much prefer to walk into a classroom and have live bodies. But I do understand the value and the benefits of kind of these mixed models. And, you know, the students being able to not have to come to class if they're ill, or— but not fall behind. And so we do record. That all is good. We record classes so students can watch. I think all of that to me is— it's not high tech, but it is— it has transformed the teaching of law. And then, you know, obviously, as a— this wouldn't really apply to your audience, but, you know, faculty meetings, all kinds of things can be done now online without having to come up on campus. And I think the practice of law is the same. A lot of client meetings are now done by Zoom or other forms instead of clients coming to downtown Toronto, for instance, where parking is difficult and expensive and so on and so forth. So that to me is a— it's not, I don't know, it's not a huge transformation for me because I've been doing it since 2010, but I think it is a pretty big transformation for— there's— I don't know if students in other— in their undergrad have had much exposure to that again until probably the pandemic. So Yeah, I don't— yeah, that, that would be the big one for me. That's so good. Yeah, that's so good. I, I must say, the, the recordings are so nice, uh, and I feel like for a lot of, uh, different things, right, I feel like they, they, they're also listed as like an accessibility, uh, thing as well, right? Because there's so many different, uh, you know, things, neurodiversity and all that, that really can benefit from having a way to just get to watch it again or something like that. So yeah, for so many, so many reasons, I, I find those very beneficial. Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, the accessibility of the education now with, with this sort of technology is really— it— I don't know how we managed without before. It really— some students would have just been— yeah, they, they, they get— they got left behind, I think, right? And they weren't able to to cope. So, all righty. Well, Professor, thank you so much for sharing with us today this, you know, very insightful things. And before we wrap up, you know, is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners? Maybe could you share with us a little more of how we can access your podcast, how they could have a listen to it as well? I was gonna— when you— I was gonna say, well, the one thing I will share is people should listen to my podcast too. Because, you know, we had, I, we had quite a good audience before the pandemic, before my sabbatical, we were, we had 10,000 downloads and everything was going well. But then when you pause something, you'll know this, when you pause for 2 years, you lose your listeners and your audience. And it takes a while to build it back up. So we have just started again. And I would love people, I, then maybe I should have you as a guest. on my podcast. How's that, buddy? Well, that, that'd be great. I'll, I'll be starting, uh, my GPLLM in September now, in the fall. Yeah, so maybe I'll have a little, a little bit more of an informed and insightful participation after that. Yeah, yeah. Well, no, and I— and you're right, and I think, you know, one of the things that I have not had many students talk about is the international student experience, which should be Well placed to do that as well as graduate work. So anyway, yes, by all means, my podcast, I'll remind people, it's called What's Law Got to Do with It? A Lighthearted Look at Life in Law School, and it's available on all of the various podcasting— I don't know what they call them, podcasting hosts or whatever. Yeah, so I would— yeah, if I get any listeners from yours, that would be great. Sounds good. Thank you so much. Thanks everybody, and we'll see you all in the next episode. Thank you.