Becoming a Lawyer in Canada with Lilia Kvorka

Hello everybody, thanks for tuning in for another episode of Studying Law Around the World. Today we have the opportunity to host Lilia. She will be sharing a little bit about pathways to becoming a Canadian lawyer. Lilia has a great story. She has worked in a diplomatic mission. She has done lots of incredible things. Currently she is one of the, the people that work in the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association, and she has been doing a lot to help more people to join the legal field and also to make it more diverse. So we're very honored to have you here today, Lilia. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for accepting the invitation. And to start us off this evening, or whenever you're listening to this, could you share with us a little bit about your background, about who you are? Yes, of course. Thank you, Claudio, for this invitation. As I was mentioning a few minutes ago, I really enjoy your podcast, and thank you for actually having a platform for more lawyers or international-trained lawyers looking to practice law. That is fantastic. Well, good evening, good afternoon, everyone. My name is Lilia Kaworka. I'm a lawyer in Mexico. I'm a I'm a Mexican-Canadian citizen. I became a Mexican lawyer back in 2010, 2009, actually, something around those dates. Ay, Talia. Something around those dates. I'm really bad. I'm a mom now, so those dates are like long gone. But anyways, I came to Canada in 2010. And I start working for the Mexican Embassy, like Claudia was saying. Um, fun, fun story, a fun fact. I was supposed to be in Canada just for a year. I came here with a student visa. I was just here for like study and 6 months of studying English and 6 months working. Um, but eventually I got an offer from the Mexican consulate. And worst thing, it was like, well, I'll give it a try. Why not? You know, uh, I had a chat with my family, with my, with my parents and everybody was like, well, for sure, it's a great opportunity. It's just going to be a year. Right. So that was 14 years ago. So that, that job offer became another year, another year, another year. And I ended up working with them or staying with the Mexican consulate for 5 years. So, as an internationally trained lawyer, you can practice in your consulate or embassy, and you can still call yourself, let's say, like a lawyer, right? You can still practice laws from your country of origin. If you're not doing that, then you, of course, you cannot practice. You will need to be either a lawyer in the province you're living in, or you need to be a foreign legal consultant. That is another thing. another path to actually practice law from your country of origin in Canada. So I stayed at the consulate for 5 years. And after that, well, I got married, I had a baby, and after I had my baby, well, I had to say goodbye to the consulate, right? And when I left, I, it was like, I think when I realized that, you know what, I cannot practice law. I cannot be a lawyer in Canada, or at least in this specific place, was here in Ontario, right? So I cannot be a lawyer in Ontario. So what can I do? And my journey, let's say, I think began at that moment when I left the consulate. Let's skip a few years because I think we have a few questions that we want to cover. But as of now, I am working for a mining company. It is called America's Gold and Silver. I'm an associate corporate counsel, and I am also a director of the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association. And yeah, I'm a mom of 2 super active kids, and yeah, happily supported by my husband that I need to Say that he's my partner in crime for all this. That's incredible. Thank you so much for sharing a little bit of who you are with us. We really appreciate getting to know our guests, and that always helps a lot to, to know the person behind the story, right? Thanks for already sharing a little bit about, uh, how you came to Canada, right? So you've worked for the Mexico Foreign Mission in Canada. Impressive. And then once you realized that you weren't a lawyer per se anymore, officially in this jurisdiction, what motivated you to pursue a legal career in Ontario then? You know what, Claudio, that's a really good question because at that, the time that I realized that it was time for me to actually use all the All the years that I've put on actually becoming a lawyer in Mexico, right? It was, it took me a few years to realize that it was, it was the time to actually pursue the, my education here. I heard from a lot of people that it was really hard, that it was a waste of time. It's a waste of money. You should not do it as an internationally trained lawyer. Uh, you will never be able to, you're going to spend years, you're going to spend all your money and it's, it's, it's not worth it. Right. Unfortunately, like most of the people that I've been talking about this, uh, I listened to those, I don't want to say advices, but to those comments, right? So instead of me actually using that time to like prepare myself, to like understand the process, to see what's going on, what, what should I do? I just left that idea of not becoming a lawyer in Ontario, in Canada, and I was like, it's too complicated, even without knowing. What the process was, right? So again, a little bit of oversharing, but I think it's good for everyone to understand. At that point, I was a permanent resident, and I was like, okay, so I want to do something. What can I do? And I started looking for— there was a workshop that was on the city of Pickering. They had this new— what's the name? Uh, the newcomers, I think it's a newcomers section or something like that. They have different departments in each municipality. And they had this fantastic job search workshop that it was on Saturdays and it was like an 8-month program or something like that. So I'm like, okay, what else can I— I mean, what else can I lose, right? I mean, yes, I'm a lawyer back home. Yes, I have this, what I consider a fantastic experience, but here It's, it's been difficult to, to find a job, right? So I started, I took that class and at the end of the class, the, uh, the project, the final project was actually applying for a job. So now they, they taught you how to do your resume, how to do this, how to like target it to the Canadian version of resumes and all that stuff. And in my final project, I found this position that it was a receptionist in a law firm in downtown Toronto. So it was like this super nice, like boutique international law firm and this and that. So I did my resume. I had my teacher, like we reviewed the stuff, but they prepared me for the interview and so on. I sent the information. And yeah, a few days later I got a call and I was super happy, right? I was like, oh my God, I'm going to be a receptionist in this like fantastic law firm in downtown Toronto. Can you imagine? So anyways, I got to the interview. Well, I was in the interview, started with the executive assistant from, from this office. And midway, halfway through the interview, the partner shows up. And I was just like, oh my God, like what's going on? And he literally just walked into the conference room and he's like, good morning, I'm this person. Are you applying for the receptionist role? And I'm Just like all smiles, like super nervous. I was like, I was not prepared for this, but yes, good morning. And he sat down. He started going through my resume and he was like, are you applying for the receptionist position? Like this was the second time he was asking, right? And I was like, yeah, I am. And he's like, why are you doing this to yourself? And Claudio, I think that that was the moment that, you know, like in my brain, it was like, like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean? What? He's like, you have a fantastic background. And he started listing the information that for me, it was just, it was in my resume, right? Whatever. And he's like, you, you, you have a really good background. You have more courses, more classes than probably have taken more like CPDs, that I didn't know at that time what they were, than my staff. And I'm like, okay, what does this mean? I mean, is it good? Is it bad? And he's like, and you're applying for a receptionist. He's like, why are you doing this to you? Are you sure you want to do this to yourself? So it was hard for me because I had the idea of like, as an internationally trained lawyer, you cannot, it was so hard and to become a lawyer and then have this partner from this like super fancy law firm telling me like, how did you dare apply for a receptionist role, right? So he kept going and he's like, you know what, I cannot offer you a position as a receptionist, but I can offer you a position as a legal assistant. That's the least that I can do. So I was like, that was like, there was a shocking moment, like it was It was, I think, my eye-opening, at least, that, wow, I have this person telling me that I do, like, that my education is actually worth it, you know, that the stuff that I was told probably was not, um, like, those comments were not meant to be harmful or to be, but anyways, that was, that was not the right approach that the law firms or the partners have regarding internationally trained lawyers, right? And at that point I was like, you know what? Okay, I will take the position for sure. And I said like, I have no Canadian experience because you probably heard that Canadian experience, Canadian experience, everybody asks for Canadian experience, right? And he was like, no, I mean, we are here to train you. Are you willing to learn? I'm like, definitely. I mean, for sure. And even without knowing, and it was, it was, it was scary because again, I was not prepared for that, right? But he opened the door. It was, it was just a tiny door that was open, right? You know that this is your chance. Do you want to take it or not? And I was like, okay, I'm, I'm committed. So that is probably what, what pushed me to decide this is the time to, to, to go ahead. Yeah. I think that having, I actually had that interview or going to that interview. And I think I will, I will probably still applying for other roles. I mean, the legal assistant or maybe a law clerk or something like that, but not my actual goal of actually becoming licensed in Ontario. Right. Wow. Wow. What a story. What a story. I love when there's this uh, this one person that like sometimes just helps you like flip a switch, you know? And that's incredible. I'm so happy that, that you had that opportunity, I guess, early on, right? Because it could have been many years before that happened. So that's so incredible. Exactly. That's so incredible. So, so I guess you, you could say that like the first challenge that you have to getting licensed is really not having information about it, right? Just because Uh, what I hear a lot from people that I, that I've connected with is that a few years back, just because of the lack of information, and, and sometimes if you're working with a consultant that wanted to sell you like colleges, for example, they would say, oh, like you have a law degree in your home country, unfortunately you can't do that in Canada, but let's get you a college of something else. And then you come to Canada, you work for something else, and then because it's too expensive, too hard to become a lawyer. And, and I've been hearing that more and more, and, uh, especially this year with the new, uh, government rules for like postgraduate work permit, I feel like this debate has, has gotten more and more, uh, important, right? But definitely we're trying to do our parts to make information more and more available. Exactly. So starting from that, starting from a lot from, I guess, a few years back, you didn't have as much on the internet, right? Uh, and, and that was the first big challenge. But what were some other challenges that, that you found, um, when getting licensed or, or like to, to start this, this whole process? And, and if you don't mind me asking, did you— which route did you end up taking? Did you end up doing a JD, LLM? Did you just challenge the exams? What was your route? Okay. So the first question, um, the, the challenging part was actually understanding the process. So at the point that I decided, like, okay, I sat down with my, with my husband and I'm like, you know what? Like, I think, I think I really, really want to do this. Um, I, I, and at that point, yeah, I was doing a lot of research. I was like contacting people, like, what is your experience? What have you done? What happened? This. And I said, they said it's it's doable, but it's hard. I need I need to have like some support. Like like I need to be um to be able to have someone right to help me. I don't know. Like in in my case was for example preparing me food foods or I will sit down and start studying and I'll forget about the time for example. So my husband will be like, do you need to drink your water? Like you take a break or this and that. Like don't forget to eat. No da da da. Um, because I, and he was looking after my, uh, our first kid, right? So it was kind of like, um, but the challenging thing was actually understanding the process. Uh, when, when I decided, okay, I, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this. I was already in Canada, right? And the NCAA, they were asking me for, um, first, actually, let me take one step back. I remember that when I, when I apply, I send, I open the file, like they said, no, you need to open your file and they can start reviewing your information. I was like, okay, so how do I do this? Like, I'm in Mexico. Like, for me, it was kind of, for me, it was new for them. Of course, it's like they do that every day, right? I found that it was like a great thing to do is actually reach out to them for advice. They asked me for, you would need a certificate from your school. And this needs to be in a sealed envelope, like you cannot touch it, but it needs to be translated into English and it has to— I called to my school, uh, to my school and they were like, in Mexico, and they were like, yeah, we cannot do that. Like, you have to come here in person, you have to apply in person, you have to bring the envelope, and we cannot ship anything to any other country. And I'm like, but I will bring the envelope. Like, no. So trying to understand that, how can I comply with what the NCA was asking me while I was here. And even when I had family down there, they were not able to help because apparently nobody can touch the document and nobody can see it because otherwise it's void and it's canceled and you cannot continue your process. So going through those challenges that you're like, it's just a certificate, it's something as simple as a certificate, it was causing me a lot of grief. It was causing me a lot of grief. I'd exchange a few emails with the NCA, like, what can I do? Like, they, they won't translate the document, even a courtesy translation. So they had to do several things, like arranging, arranging a translator to actually have like a draft version of the document to translate it to do it. So that was the most challenging part, understanding the process, the timing, understanding once that you apply, how long do you have to actually complete this thing? Because again, it's not just, okay, I have my, my, the, the requirements that, that they're asking for, but how long do you think, how long do you have to, to comply with them? And are you willing? I mean, financially, emotionally, like all this, all these things, right? Are you ready and able to, to do the process? And, and yeah, when I got the result, I remember that I was joking with my husband that, that I was like, oh my God, they said that they're super happy that I'm a lawyer in Mexico, but they don't care here. Especially because they were asking me for this, like, long list of requirements, right? Uh, but now the second question, or answering to your second question, I did the same thing. I, I, I started, like, searching. Okay, I think I had, they asked for 8 credits, but 8 8 or 9 courses, I think they were asking me for. And at that time, I decided it was the best for me, at least, was to go through the GPLLM program. I did my research. I mean, again, financially, time commitment, this and— I was not living in downtown Toronto. I was living outside of Toronto. So I considered the time, the travel time. And yeah, I applied for the GPLLM and I was admitted to the program. Like, I was like super, super happy. We were super happy. And 2 weeks after, or a few weeks after, after being admitted, I found out that I was pregnant, waiting for my second kid. So, so it was a blessing. I mean, it was, I don't want to say hard. Because again, I had the family that supported me and, and all this, but it was, it was a little bit more challenging or exciting to actually go through the classes, like with your big belly. Uh, my kid was born halfway through the, through the exams. Everybody was shocked when I came back after he was born. And then I came back like with no belly and everything. I'm like, okay, I'm ready to keep taking the classes. And everybody's like, what are you doing here? You know? Um, but again, that was another motivation for me to actually keep going, right? I was like, okay, now this is real. It cannot, it cannot stop. I have my husband. My parents came this way. My in-laws were. So it was, it was a whole village that actually made this, this happen. Wow. Wow. That's incredible. I'm so happy to get to hear your story. And wow, a lot, a lot of things happening. Um, I'm happy to hear that you took the GPLLM program. That's the program I'll be doing later this year. So I'm definitely excited to go on that route. And no doubt, you guys, the alumni, have left really big shoes to fill. So I'm always happy to be interacting. And that's so exciting. So exciting. It's a fantastic program, I have to say. From day one, I mean, The amount of knowledge and support that you can get from, from the whole program. I mean, from the organizers, from Emily, from, from every single— I call them teachers. I know they call them differently, but from all the teachers, the professors, it's, it's fantastic. And in my experience, I will never change it. I will, I will take GPLM over everything. Um, at any point. And yes, I mean, feel free to ask them whatever if you have any questions, concerns. Like, it is fantastic. I mean, I have only like good, good, good things to say about the program. Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. Thank you. Thank you. And, you know, kind of drifting a little bit into, into some other, uh, areas and questions, you know. So considering all that you've gone through, like, what would you say that are some good tips for somebody who's listening to us now and who's either in Canada or back in their home country and is thinking about becoming a lawyer practicing in Canada? Are there some tips that you would share? Yes. The first thing, based on my experience, definitely understand the process. You need to not only, like, going through the NCA website, going through the LSO website, like, learning, like, about Arctic Link, Like your options, your rights, your obligations, your timing, your cost, everything. I think having a full picture from the whole process since the beginning or from the beginning is a good idea. Again, because you can actually plan, but again, I planned for one thing and different things happen. That's life, we know. But, but at least have, have a complete understanding of this is what I have to do. This is the time that it's going to take me. This is the, the, the fees, the price that I need to be able to afford, the cost. Uh, that will be the first, the first thing. The second thing, once that you decide on the province where you're going to be practicing, reach out to, like, any association, like whatever association you— it's there either locally, regionally, or again, the associations such as the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association or any other organizations that you can identify as part of, or you can join others as friends. That's always perfect. There are always like networking events. that you can join. And I would say 90% of them are free, either virtually or in person. So, and again, even if you join, if you are decided to practice in a province, don't forget, like, again, network, network, networking, networking, networking. You never know if you're actually going to stay in that province forever. Or again, through networking, you might be offered an articling position or a job or something in a different province. So, That's, do not limit yourself to the— to a specific province, right? What else? Yeah, definitely learn your articling options and work towards them. I have a funny story. So I did my articling through the Ryerson, through the LPP program, now the TMU University. And I remember at that time I was I was so sure that I was going to be an immigration lawyer. I was, I saw myself, I, I can see myself, you know, like having my immigration law firm. As an immigrant, for me, that was like normal, right? I'm going to be an immigration lawyer. I was also going to be an employment and then family lawyer because that's like the normal path. I mean, that's, that's, that was me for sure. Even my LinkedIn at that time had my interests are in immigration and employment and family law, right? And because I like to, again, overshare stuff, I just finished, for example, that sentence with something that I thought it was fun, like, but time will tell, I might end up practicing mining law. Because I was, I thought it was funny, right? And I was like, hoo hoo hoo, Lilia, funny girl. And anyways, once that I was in the articling under the LPP program, Again, I was decided. I was like immigration. So every time there was a job position for some something related to immigration, I was like immigration, immigration, immigration. And then one day I found out that there was this opening in a mining company in downtown Toronto, and I was like, I don't know. You know what? It's mining, and I don't know. Let's give it a try. Right? You know. I mean, you need to do the article in. part, the working part. So I was like, it's gonna be 4 months. Worst case, I'm gonna learn something new and then I can move on and then becoming an immigration lawyer, right? So again, fun fact that I got the interview, fantastic company. I did my articling with them. When I finished my articling, I was so into the company and committed that we had like plans and this and that they offered me to stay, I stayed, and I've been there with them for the past 3 years or so. So the first thing I did after I realized that, after I finished my article and realizing I was going to stay with them, was actually I was like, oh no, no, no, my LinkedIn. So I went back to my LinkedIn. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, I need to delete that. Time will tell. I might end up doing mining law, right? So Even if you are committed or decided to do, to practice in a specific area, like be open to, to try some, some different areas. For experience, I can say it's, it's worth it. Worst thing that can happen, you're just going to learn something new. And if you decide you don't like it anyways, that's fine. You can, you can move on until you find something that, that you like. Right. And the last thing that is my, my favorite things. My favorite advice as an international-trained lawyer, never ever underestimate yourself. We are coming to a country where in most cases we're speaking a different language. We are lawyers already back home. We are at the same level as any other Canadian lawyer, as any other lawyer in the world. We're bringing to the table experience. We're bringing to the table our commitment, our responsibility, our additional language that most people here, they don't have it. I have friends, colleagues that they have like 2, 3, 4, 5, they speak 5 languages and I'm like, oh my God, like I can barely speak 2 or 3, let's say, but wow. So use that as your power tools, like As an international-trained lawyer, again, you have the experience. Do not ever forget about that. You're bringing so much to the table. I think that's like my favorite thing to say. Like, we have so much to offer. Don't let anyone tell you the opposite. Wow. Wow. Thank you. I really appreciate that. It's incredible because whenever I'm doing podcast interviews, you know, A lot of it I really have to take for myself, you know. So I really appreciate any and all kinds of advice. And I'm happy that in a way, though, this becomes a little more publicly available and more people can benefit from these conversations. But I must say that that's what I've been hearing a lot, you know, leverage those skills, leverage those previous experiences because they are valuable. And they, they— Yes. Who we are, right, as a person. So it definitely, definitely, it's a, it's a great piece of advice for anybody who's thinking about it. And going, going forward on the, the questions here, can you tell us a little bit about the Canadian Bar, Canadian Hispanic Bar Association? So from what I saw on your LinkedIn, you're a board member there, and I, I know you guys promote great events. Can you tell a little bit to our members what the association is, what you guys do, and how they can become member friends or something like that? Yes. So the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association has been supporting international-trained lawyers for the past 18 years. Then 2024, it's going to be 20 years actually next year in 2025. So they started the association. It was called HOLA, like in Spanish, like hi. So it's H-O-L-A, so Hispanic Ontario Lawyers Association. They started this one in 2005, and I joined when I was starting my path in Ontario. In 2015, I think I joined them as a law student. law students, so you can join for free. You can participate. Now we actually have students' organizations in Ontario and Quebec, so we are now trying to be able— we're intending to actually have lawyers not only in Ontario and Quebec where this group is growing, but we do want to do it nationwide, cover all Canada, let's say. So yes, we are a non-for-profit organization. We have been working to represent Canada's Latin American and Hispanic legal community through advocacy, mentorship, networking events. We're supporting our members during all these stages of their legal career. And what I like the most is like we have lawyers from Different backgrounds, different, different backgrounds. And because of that, we can actually, or I believe, we believe that we understand like those challenges. We've been through those challenges. We, we, like, we, we've been through them. We've beat them. We, and I, we are a really, really good group. I think that the CHBA is doing fantastic for the international trained lawyers, for the students, again, in all the stages of their life. their lives. Like, if you are in need of advice or anything. I'm currently, for example, I'm a mentor at this time. I was a mentee when I first started, when I had the idea that— sorry, when I had the idea that I want to be an immigration lawyer. I reached out to the CHBA. They put me in contact with an immigration lawyer. A really, really, really smart lawyer. I super adore her. But again, I end up doing something else, and I joined the CHBA as a director last year, and now I'm able to, you know what, help. I mean, I can help. I've been through that. I know what my colleagues are experiencing. I think that if they need a sounding wall, if they need someone to talk to, they need advice, how do you do it? What can I do? What do you suggest? Can you give me a hand? Can you put me in contact with this person? I mean, we are willing to do that, right? We have been doing a few events or initiatives that we believe are the ones that are helping our members more. For example, in 2023, We had the Sí Se Puede Students Symposium at the University of Toronto. We launched our CHBA student chapters in 5 Canadian law schools, organized networking social events in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal. We have our mentorship program that again, it's free. Once you're a member, you can join as a mentor or as a mentee. And now, for example, we are in our yearly campaign to raise funds to donate to the youth summer program at the U of T. That's one of the things that we can actually do as a group, actually encourage other people to give it a try to the law path, to the legal path. And some other things that we do for the community and for the legal profession, like once a year, we Team up with the LSO, with the Law Society, and we celebrate our Latin American Heritage Month. Last year, for example, we had over— it was over Zoom. Lately it's been over Zoom, and we had over 250 participants, for example. And yeah, this year we are continuing with these programs. We are trying to reach out to as many students, legal professionals as possible. And yeah, actually, we're going to be holding our AGM in July, and there are positions, there are 2 board positions that must be filled. So if anybody out there wants to join the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association, please feel free to put your name forward, and we'll be happy to, to have more hands on board. Yeah. That's incredible. Wow. It's so nice that, that, you know, a group of people who've gone through these challenges are now giving it back. And I, and I feel like I've seen this, uh, more explicitly in Canada than I've ever seen it before, you know, groups of people coming from a specific place or You know, there's always people who are committed to giving back. So many little community initiatives. When I was doing an exchange in Canada a couple years ago, I was able to volunteer at North York Community Housing and just to see all the little, the, all the different initiatives, right? Be it like teaching English to newcomers, be it, you know, all the workshops for tailoring resumes. And then soon after that, I learned that like you can do those at libraries. You You know, all the city, all the like ecosystem is kind of doing that, helping out people. So there's so much of that going on, and that's so incredible. Definitely, people do need to look out for those initiatives and participate so you can receive that help. And it's so incredible. And then just like you said, you know, once you get it, then it's time to give back. So that's exactly— and awesome. Well, I really appreciate, uh, the opportunity talking with you, hearing a little bit more about your story and the pathway to become a Canadian lawyer, how that went for you. So as a final question, I'd like to know what has been, you know, the most rewarding part of this process for you? That's, that's a tricky question because I think The experience as a whole has been fantastic. It's like, I'll describe it as a Mexican telenovela, that you have the drama, you have the action, you have like, you know, like all these stages during the whole— the crying in the middle of the night, like staring at the sky, like saying, why me? Why me? I mean, all these stages, right? I've been— Um, but I think the most rewarding part is, it's actually like, like we just said, like being able to, to give back to the, to the community. Uh, again, maybe changing the narrative of this is not doable, uh, to the, yes, you can do that. No, it's not going to be easy, but you can do it. Right? I wish I've had, had someone actually sharing that with me. So I, I am of the idea that I could probably start that, like, same as when I came here, I received those comments or I heard those comments. Maybe I can start that trend of like, you know what, let's switch the narrative. It's yes, you can do it. Of course you can do it. Not going to be easy. It's going to be exciting. There's going to be ups and downs. Uh, but Find, find your people, find someone that you can, you can reach out when, when, when you need in whatever stage you are of your, of your licensing process. And, and, and yeah, it is completely doable. I think having that, um, platform or having actually that ability to say, yes, you can do it. You can count with me. I mean, I, I, I tell everyone and they always, they're always joking, oh, we're going to call you in the middle of the night. That's fine. If you need me in the middle of the night, just send me a WhatsApp or something. I'm available, for real. I would like to see more of us, of us international trained lawyers actually understanding that it's a process that we need to follow, that there's people, lots, there's groups, there is a tribe that is willing to support you. And yeah, just ask for help. And the other thing that I would just ask is not regarding the— well, it's similar to the question, but it's do not forget to take care of your mental health. I like to always add that we have to be gentle to ourselves. So even using this platform as part of the CHBA, part of the legal community, Mexican, Canadian, this, like having that opportunity to share with more people that, that please, like, please take care of yourself. Like, you're going to be, you're going to get there for sure. It's, again, it's going to be, it's not going to be easy, but it's doable. But just remember that you, you, you're going to get there, right? So be safe, be gentle with yourself. And, and it's, it's a super fun road. It's a super rewarding path. And, and once that you find your, your niche, like, congrats, share it with us. So we will celebrate all of us. And, and yeah. Wow. Thank you so very much. There is no better way to, to end this episode. Thank you so much, Olivia, for sharing. all of your experiences and story with us. And thank you so much for tuning in, and we'll see you in the next episode. Thank you guys. Bye-bye.