Career Reinvention, Japanese Business Culture, and the Fractional GC Model with Catherine O'Connell

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I'm hosting Katherine O'Connell. She has an incredible story and she's a registered foreign lawyer in Japan, also licensed in New Zealand and England and Wales. She has her own law firm, Katherine O'Connell Law. Thank you so much for making the time to join us today, Katherine. Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure. Absolutely. And to start off our podcast, Studying Law Around the World, I wanted to ask you, could you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your journey from New Zealand to building a career in Japan? Yes, exactly. Well, yes, as you just said, New Zealand qualified lawyer. I've been based in Tokyo for more than 20 years now. My career has spanned private practice, in-house legal counsel roles, Panasonic, Olympus, Mitsubishi Motors to name a few. And I'm now, as you said, running my own law firm in Tokyo. My journey to Japan really started from studying Japanese alongside law back in New Zealand. At the time, it really wasn't a combination that people did, but I had this real strong interest in Japanese law. I had this real strong interest in Japanese language and culture, but I didn't really come to Japan immediately. I built a first career as a tour guide in New Zealand, looking after Japanese tourists coming to New Zealand, and that sort of built up my knowledge of language and culture, understanding people. But I wanted to do more, and I left tourism and entered law school at Canterbury University, and then joined a law firm after that that was specializing in Japanese clients. So it was my niche I found. But I also did a lot of general work there, which I think is really important for your listeners is, I was thrown into family court, I was doing employment law, civil litigation. So I got to know about the kind of law I liked, and also the stuff that didn't really fit me. I built that big commercial practice, and then finally came to Japan. It was actually what I thought would be a one-year contract, because that's what my contract said. But actually, I stretched the terms and did other things, and now it's this 23 years. So along the way, I passed that UK bar, and now I'm really helping other people navigate coming into Japan, doing business, and becoming lawyers here. So I've become more of a bridge builder between the customs and systems, whereas before I was probably just a participant as a lawyer. That's amazing. That's incredible to start with, you know, studying Japanese early in your life, and then later that interest really shaping your entire career. That's incredible. And I'm curious, you know, once you made that choice, once you took that path, what are some of the biggest surprises when you first started working in the Japanese legal and business environment? Thank you so much. I mean, there are really two drivers. First was, as I mentioned, this really keen interest in the language and culture. But I believe language is simply a tool. You need to combine it with something else. And so that's where the combination of law and Japanese was something that was really good for me. That combination really built that first door for me coming to Japan. And so interestingly, though, I was already using that in New Zealand. So why come to Japan? But that's where the second driver comes in, is that it's really more serendipitous, is that a friend of mine who's a lawyer put an advertisement as a foreign lawyer in Japan opportunity, a job opportunity to come here. And I always describe it as incredibly generous, because maybe your listeners have people in your network that you don't think you would ever be able to introduce you to a role that's going to make and change your life. But it did. And from that coming to Japan, she may have known that I would never probably return to New Zealand if I really loved that job. And that's exactly what happened. So once I started working in Japan, some of the surprises were that for me, it wasn't really much about business and legal work. It was really about building relationships. And your technical experience is important. But in Japan in particular, how something is communicated, how decisions are built, how relationships are managed, are really as important as the legal answer. Another surprise for me would be the level of alignment that happens behind the scenes. Decisions aren't always a hundred percent made in meetings. There's a lot of intention and openness that goes in the background there. So for listeners, I'd say, you know, try to, when you're young, build something distinctive like law and Japanese. It might be something else for you. And not having a 10 year or five year plan actually helps you. And I certainly didn't have that coming to Japan and many other things have unfolded since. Incredible. You did mention you worked in private practice in in-house roles at enormous multinational companies like Panasonic, Olympus, Mitsubishi. And later, now you started your own boutique farm in Tokyo. So looking back, what did each of these stages really taught you and, you know, about how legal services actually work for businesses? Because I'm sure there's a different kind of skill set in a way that you might use in different phases of your career. And in a way, how did your role as a lawyer needed to evolve? Exactly. It's such a good question because looking back, you can see it. But going forward, you don't quite know what it's going to be. But each stage of my career, I think it reshaped how I understood what it means to be a lawyer. So in private practice, I learned technical excellence, precision, you're trained to get the law right, to analyze thoroughly, give a clean answer. That's really great. But it's not often how those answers actually play out in the business context. So moving in-house, I think it was a very different experience because you're in the room, you see how risk is weighed up, how decisions are made commercially, and how legal advice is actually used in real time. And then building my own firm, well, you're not only responsible for advice, you're responsible for how it lands with your client, like personally, how the relationship with your client can build over time. So for anyone, I think, who's thinking about a legal career, your role may not be how it looks now or how you think it's going to be, because it certainly does evolve over time. Catherine, I understand that you've become the first foreign woman to launch your own law practice in Tokyo. So I'm curious to hear a little more about that. What challenges did you face in building that firm? And also what helped you to gain some trust in such a relationship-focused business culture? Well, that is just such a great question, because I never really had my goal as setting out to be a law firm owner. That never crossed my mind, especially back when I was a junior lawyer. Even when I was in-house, it just wasn't a possibility. And I really did it because intentionally, I wanted to build a law firm where it was a fractional general counsel model that I could serve many clients, because I actually love in-house legal work. You just can't do that under the regulations and laws in Japan. To provide legal advice, you need to be a registered foreign lawyer, in the case of a foreign lawyer. And so I needed to build a law firm to do the work that I wanted to do, right? So it allowed me then to be really close to the business. In terms of challenges, there were a few. And one was actually something you may not think about. Some people saying, isn't it a risk to go out and do something yourself? And I heard that question a lot. And in the end, I sort of accepted it and moved on. But I think I learned from that is that these people are holding a mirror up to themselves and thinking about their own risk level rather than reflecting it on you. So just know that. There were some practical challenges there, too. Getting the right infrastructure in place, qualifying took eight months in Japan. It's all paperwork. Takes a long time. You've got to be tenacious. And then building things like a website, setting up invoicing, financial systems, finding the right tax accountant. All of those things happen. And you become really a business owner overnight. So I think those are the things. I've had some full circle moments where some large law firms gave me some work early on. And I thought, well, that's building trust. Why would they give me their work that they couldn't do or didn't want to do? Because it was too small, but perfect size for me. And also working at Panasonic, they hired me back when I was a fractional general counsel to do work with them. And I still do. So that's my story. Fantastic. No, that's incredible to know. And I imagine you must be so proud of, you know, looking back and seeing all this wonderful career you've built. But there's other incredible things that you've done as well. I learned that you served on boards of big companies like Toyota. And for many lawyers, I feel like board work may feel like a distant goal, something that you would do, you know, just before retiring when you're very, you know, wise and senior in the profession. But what are some of the skills or perspectives that helped you to move into this governance-related roles? And what are some things that maybe people misunderstand about board work? You're so right. I think it's something you do just before retirement. And you know, actually, for a large part of my career, I never imagined a goal for me to be, as a lawyer, to be on a board. My focus was becoming a strong lawyer, right? Working out the art and science of law and giving that kind of advice to clients. But I've explored a lot of this in my podcast, and I know we're going to talk about that. But Lawyer On Air is a place where I have actually been interviewed by Akio Inoko Hewitt, one of my guests. He reverse interviewed me on this. And I have gone into big detail of the steps and the skills and experience you need at each stage of your law career to be on a board. So a plug for that, but please go and listen to it because it's got a lot of gems and interesting things there. But I would say, in general, skills and perspectives that have helped me moved into governance roles would be judgment, not just what the law says, but knowing what sense it can make in a different context, clarity of thinking, being able to actually distill that complex information to what it really matters, communication. That's so key, knowing what to contribute and in a way that really makes the discussion go forward on a board, curiosity, questioning, that never goes away. Business understanding is absolutely key and listening, really hearing what's being said. And we're practicing that here as you're asking me questions and I'm listening too, but hearing what's being said and sometimes what isn't being said. So I think the transition to governance is not really stepping away from being a lawyer. It's expanding and leveraging how you think as a lawyer in a different context. Are there things that surprise people or misunderstandings about board work? I think misunderstandings happen quite a lot and that people think they're entitled to a role after doing 20 years as a lawyer or just before retirement. And they talk about wanting a board position. But I would say my biggest clue to you here today is that you are invited to be on a board. If you can have the right value and show perspectives that they may be interested in, then they will recognize that and invite you. So the misunderstanding that's the biggest one is that you're entitled to it after a certain period of time or just before retirement. Thank you for sharing that. Your work often sits in this interesting intersection, legal culture, helping global companies to operate in Japan. And I want to know from your experience, and I believe that you might have mentored now quite a few people trying to do a similar route. So what do foreign lawyers might misunderstand about doing business or practicing law in Japan? I know there's a very strong culture, a very big reputation about being a bengoshi. And what tends to surprise them once they're actually inside the system? Yeah, that's such a good question. And yes, I am mentoring people who are going through these difficulties and not understanding why it's not working. And I'd say, right, let me give you three misunderstandings and maybe three corresponding surprises that people have from people I've worked with. I think it's that how decisions are made. When we work in global environments, lawyers are expected that decisions are made in meetings, through decision and debate. But in Japan, it often happens as a nemawashi, which you may have heard in textbooks, guidebooks about Japan. And a lot of that context and understanding is built before the meeting for alignment. But the meeting itself does still have a discussion period. So people may think, oh, all the meetings are just already just not really a meeting for decision making. But in fact, they are. So don't always believe the guidebooks that you see about Japan. Be very curious and learn about yourself. Thinking too that the legal answer is the main event is probably a second misunderstanding our lawyers have here, assuming that their technical accuracy is the primary driver in any decision. I mean, if it's legally right, that's what you do, isn't it? I think in Japan, you really need to learn that legal advice sits within that broader context. It's not as important as you think it is. So being a high powered, amazing lawyer out of a great law school doesn't always serve you the best here. And the third one would be communication. I touched on it before. Lawyers often focus on what is said. But in Japan, communication is so nuanced. And so what is not said, especially in pauses, hesitation, tone, they carry a really a lot of meaning. So if you listen only to words, you miss out on half the message. In terms of surprises, I would say perhaps foreign lawyers arrive without Japanese language and think that'll be fine. But language matters far more than they expected because language isn't just communications. Also how you access how people think and what drives them. And what, as you said before, Bengoshi are thinking about Japanese lawyers. The surprise that legal work is really very relational. And that's where, again, where Japanese lawyers come in. You can't just not work with Japanese lawyers. You have to. It's important that you do. It's a must. And also clients don't only assess you on your technical advice, they assess you on how you build their relationship with them over time. And I think foreign lawyers also are surprised that clients focus a lot on precision here. Precision in language, precision in the way you relate to them. Thank you so much for sharing those. And I appreciate you had mentioned before about your podcast. So I wanted to ask you more about it. You host Lawyers on Air, where you share stories of women lawyers in Japan. And after speaking with so many guests, I may, if I may ask, you know, what are some of the themes or lessons about legal careers that keep coming up again and again? Yes. Thank you so much. It is actually the legal podcast for careers in Japan. So that's really exciting. It's been fascinating because every single guest has a completely different story. So there's no clear patterns. There are some themes that have come up again and again, and that is the thing. There is no single pathway to being a lawyer. Many of the women I've spoken to have come from different countries, they're in in-house legal roles. Sometimes they've completely reinvented themselves along the way. So they don't need to see the full pathway to being a lawyer, but know that the very next step to take. I think that second theme is actually that word and reinvention, adaptability. That reinvention is actually not the exception. It's the norm. And I don't think we know that when we set out in the law, but these conversations have revealed this as a theme. Careers do evolve sometimes by choice, sometimes by circumstances, and the ability to pivot and learn and step into something new is a recurring strength. The third theme would be around navigating culture, particularly in Japan, success here has come from people actually understanding the cultural communication styles. And fourth, I think would be confidence. It comes up in every single episode, but people are framing it differently. They're talking about bravery and courage coming first, before confidence comes. If you're brave and can go and do something, then confidence will build later. So you don't have confidence before doing it. It comes with being brave at the beginning. All of those things you just mentioned, they really could apply to any lawyer who's thinking about working somewhere else, or who's just, you know, building that global career from their home country. Many listeners of this show here are either law students or young lawyers, and many are considering international careers. That's why they're listening to the podcast today. So I wanted to ask you, what kind of advice would you give to someone who hopes to build, you know, a meaningful legal career across countries, across cultures, and especially if they don't yet see a clear path or have a role model to really continue on? Right. It's just such a big question, but I never had a five-year plan or 10-year plan. And I think not starting with a clear roadmap is actually okay. And so I tried to distill what I thought about this question into some key pillars. And first is, your uniqueness is your superpower. So it's very easy in an international environment to start comparing yourself. I'm not from Harvard, I'm not from Yale, I didn't do this, I didn't do that. People often have all this different experience to you, but it's your uniqueness that is not your weakness, that is your superpower. So you don't need to be like everybody else. You need to understand what makes you, you, and keep refining that over time. Second would be, learn from people who are just ahead of you. Rather than looking at people like me, who are miles ahead, think about the person who's just ahead of you. Because that's not as overwhelming as thinking, listen to Catherine, who's the person who was the little Catherine way back in the day, who was just a few steps ahead of you? That's not comparison, that's actually getting information. If you can see that inspiration just a little bit ahead of you, you can take it a long way. Third would be, if you don't see a role model, you become one. Sometimes the path is not there. And I've had this before, I've said this on many times, you don't see the person around you. If you become your own role model, then people actually look up to you and you become their role model. So I think that's quite fascinating. And also I think, you mentioned international careers, you've really got to respect the culture that you're moving into, understanding them. It's not about trying to change that culture, it's trying to work within it and not judging it against your own, but learning how to operate within that culture. International careers are not really about moving countries so much as learning how to operate in that country. And you end up learning more about yourself in a foreign culture than perhaps the culture teaches you. As we come to the end of this episode, I wanted to ask you, after these years building this career that you had, so incredible, are there a few things that you would tell your younger self when you were just starting out? Yeah, I remember my mom used to call me tenacious. And I never really knew what that word meant. Did it mean just studying hard after school, doing my homework? What was it? And I think I would say now it's to my younger self, keep up doing that because being consistent, showing up consistently, as well as having curiosity is actually key. And I would tell myself, keep doing that. And most importantly, I think, Catherine, you don't need to have it all figured out. You don't need to have certainty before you take a step. I can say that now looking back and telling my younger self that, but at the time it can feel hard to take that step. But not being ready is a thing. And readiness actually comes from taking the step, not before. So I think if you do that, not having it worked out, not knowing what's going to happen is actually a gift because you can unwrap that gift in different layers and it will unfold as it comes forward. I can definitely tell my younger self that's the case, even if my younger self didn't quite know it then. Incredible. I really appreciate you making the time to come to share your thoughts and your experience in the podcast. And thank you all for tuning in and listening to this episode. Thank you so much.