Networking, Niches, and US Opportunities with Carlos Romero

Welcome to studying law around the world. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like. In real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions. That shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world. This podcast is for you. This episode of Studying War Around the World is proudly sponsored by ITL Prep from imand Exam Prep, the comprehensive resource designed specifically for internationally trained lawyers preparing for the Inca exams. We understand that the NCA accreditation journey can feel overwhelming. You can face many obstacles getting to success courses that cost too. Much offer too little. Or leave you more confused than when you started. 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Visit imams today, that's emond, and use promo code ITL 50 to claim your 50% discount on NCA exam preparation courses. Today, I have the opportunity to have Carlos Romero as one of our guests. He has recently finished his LLM at University of Chicago and is now an International Associate at White and Case. Thank you so much for taking the time to being with us and to answering some of my questions, Carlos. Peter, be here. Claudio actually part of your. Audience because I've heard. So many of your episodes. So it's very nice to be on this side of the microphone today. Honored, happy and excited to be here. Thank. You thank you, thank you. And for for listeners who are getting to hear about you for the first time, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Of course, of course. Well, and I'm, I'm married and my wife is also my, my business partner and we had two daughters, a newborn actually. And we also have a dog. So that's a pretty big part of our family, our Mexican. And as you said, currently working at wedding case and international arbitration practice based in Washington, DC. And my time at the firm will come to an end by the end of this month, in Halloween actually. So. Our plan is to relocate back to Chihuahua, Mexico where I'm from. They expect to rejoin my wife in our legal translation firm, but we started six years ago and I'm open to other businessmen dentures as long as I can be based in in Chihuahua. And last but not least, I enjoy talking about Ellen programs in careers for lawyers in Mexico and and abroad. So that's that clothing. And your junker writing to some of the questions that I prepared for our conversation here today. I wanted to ask you about the this whole experience, right. So you were a lawyer, you worked with legal translation and then you decided to start an LM. So I'd love to to start hearing a little bit about that. You know, looking back, what was that decision like? How did you set yourself up to do that? And University of Chicago is a pretty prestigious university. So I'd love to hear about your your story and experience there. Thanks. I was warning the US raised in Chihuahua and they moved to Monterrey, Mexico, which is a bigger city to go to law school. And when I was an intern at a corporate law firm there, I noticed that many partners had LLM degrees. So that was back in 2012. So when I graduated in 2013, I was always keeping an eye on LLM programs. I was very excited about that. But no time went by and and I was not applying. And another you went by and that was not applying. And then I switched jobs a lot and then I got married to my law school sweetheart. And then at some point 10 years went by and and we were talking discussing about another program on on a long road trip we had and she was like all in very supportive. And at that point, we already had some nice enough savings to we pay for the tuition and the living expenses. So we decided to move forward after 10 years. So I, I started applying to a bunch of law schools, 12 law schools in the US and I was accepted, admitted some law schools, rejected from some and whitelisted and others. So I was playing this game of getting like in waitlisted and scholarships and scholarship negotiations. And I learned a lot during that process. And, and I was first going to Berkeley and then Georgetown and then finally I was admitted to University of Chicago. And it was a like, in my opinion, like the best law school that admitted me. So I decided to to enroll there in and we moved to Chicago. It was it was the process of moving to the US. Fantastic and and building on this law school experience and what prepared you for? For the role you currently. Have as well. I'm curious about, you know, what kind of skills you used up in your day-to-day role and then also a little bit of the story of how you're building over the years. The most challenging assignment that I had during my fellowship, so my position is like Latin American fellowship was to, to do some research and drafting an initial assessment, a memorandum regarding some investor state dispute on Mexican tax law matters. I guess I was very lucky because first of all, I'm familiar with Mexican law. So that's, that's convenient. And also I had previous experience as a tax lawyer in Mexico. So I guess that really helped me to cut could chase try to do some drafting that was a shoulder than the usual Mexican long documents that we are familiar with. The simpler drafting was a skill that I, I wasn't familiar with, but it was easier for me because I understand the, the substance of the matter in this case. So that was, that was pretty lucky. And also I, I also had experience as in house counsel in Mexico in, in that kind of knew that in-house lawyers prepare shoulder documents than those very, very long memorandums and laughed. I guess it was very useful to see other documents previously drafted by the firm, you know, and I'm talking about memorandums and also request for arbitrations because I also want to be involved in the drafting of the request of arbitration and seeing other documents using them as templates was very useful. Period Feedback from my supervisor was really helpful point. So I guess that was the biggest or most challenging, challenging experience they faced as a as a film. I see. That's so interesting. And something that that I've noticed is that you ride on LinkedIn about topics related to LOM, which is so interesting. And as somebody who is very interesting on the, the programs and entered the whole logistics and economics of foreign attorneys studying in North America. I wanted to ask you a little bit about, you know, if a foreign attorney wants to have some work experience in the US after their LM, what have you seen to be some of the possibilities and maybe even the most realistic path that they can do And, and even how do they prepare for that in, in the first year when they were still in the LM? Course course clouded. Please prepare for a long answer. Yeah, I'm happy to go back and forth. Well, as many of you know, and when you pursue an alarm in the United States, you are able to do like the OPT, the optional practical training. So that's, that allows you to work in the US for 12 months, right? I'm talking about migration wise. If you want to stay longer in the US you can do that with the H1B visa which now if it requires $100,000. Luckily for Mexican attorneys and Canadian attorneys 1000 USMC AD said it that TNB said which Dawson require that fee right. Having said that, only a very small percentage of allium students actually land a job in the US. A very, very, very small percentage. And most of the jobs offer for 11 grads are one year positions. Very few are permanent positions where elements usually but not always start as first year associates in in big law. That means a salary is $225,000 at the the big picture right? In terms of actually landing those jobs, which is the hard part. Preparing to land the job in the US usually starts way before starting your your limit. This program is known as foreign associate International visiting professional International fellowships are usually used by a big fears to strengthen their ties with clients or other firms abroad. So you need you need to understand how these foreign attorney programs work and how can you fit in that logic. What business case can you build and present to to US firms to to try to get higher? And so this one year positions are usually offered by U.S. law firms to clients. And by that I mean to lawyers working as in-house counsel in usually big companies in your home jurisdiction who which have international disputes or international transactions. And therefore these companies higher U.S. law folks, right? So there's one bucket like OPT positions offered to clients. And there's also another group of attorneys who work in big law firms in their home countries. This law firms usually work as local council along with U.S. law firms in this big deals, big international dies or international disputes, right? So the law firms want to make friends or straight from the relationship with this, the you want to do that with this international, I don't know, like Mexican or Canadian or any kind of law firm. Sabra and day fire the the the usually mid level associate so they can become friends and eventually get some business in the future. And then there's also, in a lesser extent, LM grads who don't belong to the previous groups, but they have some specific background that is attracted to this use lawful strike. So please contribute whenever you want. So if you are an alien working at a very big firm or a very big company in your home country, you can ask your supervisors, partners or the general counsel to recommend you to a use law firm they usually work with. However, if you do that and you actually works, you will be kind of in depth with your supervisor and maybe you will be inclined to return to your previous job after working in the US. However, you work at a big company or a big firm in your home country and you don't wanna go back there after the 11. You can try finding a job on your own. Maybe a useful will be happy to have you because they think you have a great background and you will eventually return to your home country and you will land the great job and that can potentially in the future lead to new business for the US fair. Whatever you you finish up, you end up working right in house Rd. a local funeral. So they they think the bear and well, however, if you don't work at a big company in your home country or a big firm, it's usually way more complicated to land the job. But you need to figure out what in your background can make you useful to you as sprints, right? Maybe you have experience in a specific industry like the mining industry, oil and gas, aviation, etcetera. Maybe you have skills that are in demand at that specific point in the in a particular firm. For instance, if there's a an international dispute, sperm doing a lot of work in Latin America, maybe at that point, maybe they wouldn't be interested in hiring people who speak Spanish, who know the domestic law of a particular country in America, people who have a particular nationality. So in different points of time, different people can be more demand. So what do you need to do as an LPN student or grab? You need to to find out which law firms will be more interested in hiring someone with your backpack and, and, and how do you do that? Well, I mean, there's no recipe, but you can bring since you can go online and Google like U.S. law firm rankings. And then you can see a ranking of big law firms. And then you can choose whatever law firm you want. You want to try first and type the name of the law firm and then add Latin America practice, for instance, wedding case Latin Americans or any And then you'll see if there's actually a Latin America like this or at Europe or Asia or Africa. You name it and you'll find out if they have actually a lot of things that's going on in your region or your country and also the name of the partners, the name of the senior associates and and you can actually see which lovers are having a lot of business in in your region. And then you you can reach out to that practically. But now you will do so with a more laser focused in which law firms actually will be more likely to hireright, they didn't do that, but actually the day, but I think that will be very helpful for students to try to don't waste time, right. So I guess yeah, your turn of. All right, so well, I I think I want to say something really quickly that we are obviously as as good lawyers and as a forever disclaimer for the podcast. This is not legal advice when we talk about immigration here is just so we can talk about a few educational options. But I really like what you said, first see the different options and see how much of A hassle it will be for the firm to keep you around if they do have an interest in doing that. And then it's interesting to know that because maybe you have to advocate for your case when if you do get an interview and they'll be like, oh, it's going to be really hard to hire you because of immigration purposes, then you already know how the process works and how straightforward it is. So I really like that. But then I like what you just explained of like, maybe if you have a specific skill or if you have something that the firm does a lot, that's how you would really connect to the firm in many ways. And I find that to be very interesting. And then you also mentioned about your experience on, you know, working in tax law back home in Mexico right now, having to working in, you know, a tax research about Mexico in your firm. So it really shows the value of having this foreign associates. And I find it very interesting that you explained a little bit of the social say like politics of this programs, right, and how the firms maintain those relationships alive, which which is incredible, honestly. And I'd, I'd love to hear you know, a little more about as you kind of learned about all of these experiences and possibilities. Did you also ended up, you know, bringing touch with people who were fellows in other offices and, and heard a little bit about their experience as you went throughout yours? And then we can go on and talk a little more about about your experience with LinkedIn, but I have a specific question for that after. Course. Yeah, happy. To check. On that too, yeah. So when I was applying to the program, so was in touch with LLM alumni from Latin America. So I end up meeting a guy from Mexico who went to use Chicago as well. And then he landed this fellowship position of case a year before me. So he talked to me about about it at a didn't know. I didn't know it existed. It was very useful to to network with people working in the US a year before me, right? And yes, other classmates from Chicago and then landed similar positions in some in a few states, some landed permanent positions as well. So it's interesting to to know the differences, right? So these positions are usually one year, but they're not all equal. Some positions pay more, some of the points pay more. Other law firms are more demanding, whether it offers aren't really there's not that many much more to do. At some point, some law firms ask you to do stuff, which is very challenging, while others is like a pretty first year basic stuff you were doing like a bunch of years ago back in your country. So it's really hard to to know. I mean, you cannot get picky right? If you get up, if you're lucky to get a position, you usually take it right. But if you are in a position buried two people do to actually choose from different programs. It seems it's very useful to talk to people to understand how much are you getting paid? How much is are you paying on taxes? How expensive is still living in that country? What's the how demanding is a job? How many hours you put into and how's the work environment? And in my case, it was a fantastic experience people. I moved from Chicago to BC. I loved it. I loved the work, I love the colleagues, I love the firm. You know, I will really miss this, which was a long time goal to me and I will. I don't know, I have mixed feelings there, but it's coming to an end. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I kind of. I don't know if I'm missing something. But no, that was great. It was, it was super cool that that the networking aspect of it also played their role and finding this position and learning that this even exists in the 1st place. I think that's a very important point. You don't, it's hard to think about a specific strategy if you don't even know those possibilities exist. So I think that's a, that's a great starting point. And LLM programs are nine months long. So it's, you know what, what if you're on time? You're, you're, you're, you're already late. You got to be like 15 minutes earlier to your appointment to, to actually, you know, I saw the Brazilian guys, they already knew how the US law firm market, how to play the game. And I wasn't familiar with that. Yeah, it's important to to understand how it works, how the job per works, how the networking works. And and you don't learn that in. No, I, I can definitely see how this kind of information usually stays siloed thing in some specific places. And it's interesting because you can't blame those who want to kind of keep it among themselves or you would have to go to then to talk about it. And then it keeps this kind of opportunity in a in a select few ends. So I love what is happening. You know, you know. Way I, I try to use my podcast as well as a tool for people, you know a lot in Canada and then in the US as well, but you really know about the possibilities, right? Because once you know that that's even possible, you know, the name of what you look for, then you have, you know, so many resources to go after, but before that, it's really tricky to even know things are possible. So I really appreciate you bringing that up. And then I, I'd love to go on another topic. So you've been writing in Spanish on LinkedIn or in English as well about LM's careers fellowships. And it's been really interesting to follow what you've been putting there, be it, you know, numerical statistics or just really the thoughts you've been sharing out there. And I'd love to hear how did you decide to start that? I look up to you too, because you always you also put a lot of time into this. You know, at the beginning I started doing this after the 11 more than the regular basis and I first started posting about forward this issues and statutory amendments in. I quickly realized that nobody cared about that. I always had like crickets in. Response SO. I started posting about my LM experience and some thoughts and I quickly realized there was an audience for that. So it was I started posting more regularly about that and I didn't sit for the bar. So I had more time during the summer before starting my position at the firm. So I did some research and numbers and all that and in that worked well and I decided to do it throughout the year for a couple of reasons. First, I wanted to to build a network of people who were more likely to answer me a call or respond my messages if there was any business development opportunity that arose. So when I was working out, when I joined the firm, then I'm I'm, I'm on parental leave now. That's why I talk like in the past when I was working. So. Whenever there was a dispute arising in Latin America, I, I always check if I had any contact, any people I knew had exchanged some messages via LinkedIn working at that company in, in Uruguay, New Mexico, children, whatever. And if I did, I proactively mention that to my supervisors, you know, like I know, I know someone working in that firm, you've been in touch. Maybe we can reach out to them to try to, to figure out if we can be their council eventually. I mean, that's a very long shot, but I think that was the, the idea to try to, to make some friends around the way along the way. Well, every time I post something on LinkedIn, if someone likes it or comment or whatever, I send them a connection request and the start of conversation in many of those new connections want to speak about LPN programs or colleges in the US. And I talked to as many as I can and, and just hope for the best. And eventually it will lead to a friendship or a business opportunity. Or whatever. And also I do this because I, I know this is temporary, right? Like my position, I'm, I'm more popular now that I'm at a wedding case than than before. So I'm trying to build a network at this point in courtesy something if you can and if, if I can build a personal brand, a personal brand now and then that can bring me to new business opportunities in the future. I want to live back in Mexico where I'm from in Chihuahua and there's not a big legal hub there. So I'm hoping that it will be network. I can work remotely for a company or maybe build something from Chihuahua that doesn't limit to the city and based they can be a nation wide business or international business or whatever. Last but not least, you know, meaning people in LinkedIn such as yourself and getting to know people with different walks of life helps you spot new opportunities. So that's the that's my idea and hopefully fingers crossed it will work at some eventually because now I discussed this with my wife a lot. I put a little time into this, but it gets also it's an addiction at some point as well. Absolutely, absolutely. It's, it's interesting, you know, the, the podcast for, for a long time and it's chewing a in a realistic way. It is just is a hobby, right? So it's just being such an interesting thing to do. I just enjoy talking to people and just having the opportunity to do these and, and share it out. I've I've talked with a few people where I mentioned that there was a few goals of mine related to these helping me to talk to other people, helping me to keep consistent and networking and and so forth. But it really is that I noticed I was having lots of really interesting conversations and then I didn't have a way to refer back to those conversations as well as some conversations just felt too good not to be shared. So that's where, you know, the whole promise premise of starting a podcast started. And, and I totally see what you're saying there. And it really becomes an addiction in a way. When we talked about, you know, these, these possibilities and fellowships and all of that. I, I ran all these different searches using all the tools I know to see if I could, you know, come up with the ultimate list of like the 100 AM law firms that have those kinds of programs. And, you know, it's, it's just the kind of thing that really, it's just interesting to see what's going on out there in the world and also the possibilities and share some good stuff with people out there. So I, I really shared that passion. No way. I love that your your podcast has evolved from studying studying law and now practicing law as well. That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. It has, It really has. It's funny. I started interviewing people by asking, how do you become a lawyer in your country? So I had at some point talked with, you know, 14 people. It was part of a law school project. So I would be asking you questions in English, translating my question to Portuguese, and then I would hear your answer and translate your answer to Portuguese right after that. So it was quite the process. By the end of the recording, I was so exhausted. And soon I learned that the audience that was listening to me was mostly one that could understand English. So there was no need to actually be translating it. So what it took off that wouldn't really like it took off and and I felt like I should continue on. I decided to continue in English only and it's been it's been much easier in a way. As as you said, I'm, I'm posting mostly in Spanish because I thought it was there, there was a big audience, but I don't know, I always think it at some point maybe I should switch to English to try to land the bigger audience. I'll think about that. And now that you said now that you share your process and it's interesting. Thanks. Claudia yeah, I mean, how is the, the good thing is to run some testing, right. Sometimes even though your audience might be able to read it in Spanish, they they might prefer to to engage in stuff that that is in Spanish instead of English as well. So yeah, there's, there's lots you to see, but yeah, it's, it's definitely a possibility. And before I get to, to sidetrack here, I, I thought I'd ask you. So for those lawyers who are now thinking or preparing to do an LM in the US or to continue their careers, I thought I'd ask you if you have a couple of tips and strategies that what, what could be done to improve your possibilities and to really maximize those chances of that experience being the best they can be. And if anything, at least that people can make educated choices so they know what's possible and available to them. You were thinking about doing an LPN in your still home country. I'll suggest you try to land a job in one of the biggest fears in your country or one of the biggest companies in in your country. I will I will really maximize your chances of landing a job in the in the future. So if you are still on time to do that, I will highly suggest doing that. But if you're not, if you're already applying to LLM programs and already studying loan program, I will suggest not to focus so much on your grades. And it's I mean, it's it's complicated because you know you as an online student, the academic students, right? You want to learn about, but you also need to realize you were London land the job and you don't and you you don't have it lined up. You need to realize that no one fails in almost no one. So you don't need to like to spend all your time started with and you need to spend more time in networking. So I would suggest to attend all this Washington arbitration week in conference on a indicate any kind of matters, right? So if you go to happy hours and you go to lunch tiles and you spend time meeting people, I I think that will be a better use of time that hitting the books in the in the library. However, there's not much you can do to land the job in the US while you're studying LPN program if you don't have any background that is interesting for the law firms, right? So, as I said, trying to land a job in your home country in a big law firm or in a big company will be way more important that whatever you do during your land. You can, you can even see people landing in this positions, this foreign trade positions who don't even hold an elephant diploma with. So you see what's what's more important your your background, where you work, or if you earn the most fancy. Ellen and amazing. Well, thank you. Thank you really so much, Carlos, for taking the time to to share your, your thoughts and your experience with this very, very interesting topic. I appreciate you being in the podcast today and I appreciate you all taking the time to listen to it. We experience to be here. I was very honored to get your mutation and hopefully we can have a a few more conversations in the. We absolutely, we absolutely will all right have have a good one.