Law Should Enable Innovation: From Colombia to the EU with Jorge Barona

Welcome to your studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths whether you're planning. To study abroad. Thinking about working in another legal system or just curious about how law works around the world? This podcast is for you. Today I have the opportunity to interview Jorge Barona. He has an incredible story. Jorge is an international lawyer, has extensive experience supporting European Union funded research and innovation projects. He has a very interesting academic background in Latin America, in Europe and has participated in in a lot of international projects and, and has really, really a very interesting career and I'm so excited to interview him. Thank you so much for making the time to be here today, Jorge. A cute darling your for your opportunity to be here is wonderful to have a conversation with you and also make the best of it. I appreciate it and and just start us off. I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about know your personal and professional journeying law. OK, so my name is Jorge Verona mentioned. I'm 42 years old and Colombian. I was born and raised here. Even though I have had the opportunity to study and live abroad and even the US when I was 16. I also live in New York for a while, also a van. Then I went to France to study. That was my career has taken me there personally. I'm I'm I'm a dad mentioned. I have a four year old son who I adore and wife and pretty much I based my my law practice in in keeping the values of being a dark along with keeps being able to maintain my career and to I don't know really find success in many aspects. Now that I'm a dad, I think is pretty much what I do. I moved to France in 2013 after I I got a very bad experience as a as a lawyer here in Colombia, got fired from the job because of an injury and I ended up moving to France and life gave me a second chance so I took the most of it. I been working in EU founder world for almost 30 years and directly eight years directly. So there's been so far my, my career, you know, pretty much summarized. Awesome, awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And I'd love to dig in a little more about, you know, your experiencing law your, your career. I see that your career, you know, has taken you across Europe, the US, Latin America, just like you mentioned. And and I'm curious, you know, how did working so many countries has shaped the way you see law the the way you see legal work nowadays. I. Think you'll begin with the, the university who actually, I had the opportunity to study law here in Colombia and and then I moved to France to the, to my masters and I lived in France and live in Germany. And all that opportunity or that experiences of sharing with people who with different cultures, different backgrounds. I remember in my first masters, I had the opportunity to study with people from 32 different countries. Then in the second year of mine, the second, the third master that I did was the second year. I started with mostly European people. I was the only non European in the, in the masters. And it, it sounds, it put the foundations of my work right now, because now when I work with people from across the, the ocean, I'm able to adapt myself to how this environment work. How is it that I'm, I'm able to translate the, the law to these people that work with people with not only from different countries, but from different backgrounds. There are scientists. They're they're researchers. They're mostly not lawyers. And normally when I enter a team, I'm the only lawyer in the company. And it's pretty much has being able to. I've been able to adapt to each environment so and he has changed the way I see the law, especially as a Colombian, as a Latino guy, we're used to see the law in a very traditional way. I was sharing yesterday a story here that in Colombia we all quote they call the lawyers doctors and even though we're not PHD's, but it turned out that a long time ago the diplomas in the low career it says doctor in law now. So people are still you go to a law firm here and there is mandatory to be referred to the to lawyers and doctors. And for me is something that very old and he has changed my mind because when when you work with European lawyers with wrong with you as lawyers, they care about many other things that people here in Colombia, they don't care because you need to be practical your way, your practice, your law if you need to be able to make the client understand you rather than sticking beautiful and speaking legally. So I have been able to have the opportunity to join a teams where multidisciplinary aspects are very fundamental, where you need to adapt when you need to make yourself understandable, to collaborate with people, to open up, to widen your to views of many, many things. So that's that's the mean. I'm very glad, I'm very blessed to be able to practice my lawn this way and to keep doing it so far. Sounds, sounds very, very interesting. And through this I saw that you have supported more than 25 Horizon Europe and Horizon 2020 projects. I'm curious, you know, what first drew you to the EU funded research and innovation projects and especially considering the specific work you do as a lawyer in this projects and then what also keeps you engaged in this space? I I started back in 2013, I moved to France to study my masters and back then my brother had just started his first company year. My brother had been living in Spain for for quite a while and he I was a student, Muslim student. So he asked me like Jorge, can you help us with some minor tasks? Because the company had just started. I had no idea what it started just working in a helping contracts and rafting NDA's and small legal aspects. But the company was small. I did this for a couple of years before I was living there, but not in a very big scenario. I came back to Colombia. I was working here in Colombia for the local government and and then in 2018 he gave me a call and he had opened another company and he said, Jorge, would you like to join our team for just 15 hours a week? And I said, OK, I mean, it was my brother, he was something was an attachment there. So I started now in this, in 2018, I started to work a little bit more that that was not only the projects, sorry, the contract, he was the development of the projects, they, the research of information, the sharing with these researchers, because there is a task that is specialized in that is called a regulatory mapping. That means that I go through all the legislation in the European Union to make sure that whatever comes out of the project is suitable for the EU legal environment. So I started this in 2018. Then in 2019, AIII didn't have a job here in Colombia, but I kept doing it with my brother and I started looking for a job. And one day I asked my brother and you know what? Can he make a proposal for you so I can be a full time in your company? I said OK A and then he gave me a full time job that was 2019 that I started and ever since then I've been opening my own task because copied here. One of my brothers company closed and we have some difficulties. I my son was born and I realized that we cannot put all your eggs in the same basket. So even though I was I was good in his companies. I decided to open my website and look for other environments, look for other companies, contact people, go to networking events and all these because the main motivation was my son. So I started to do and I and I realized that I was very good at what I do and because I was able to make myself understandable to non lawyers. And in this environment that is fundamental to be able to work with people who don't speak your own language. And because the first thing I do in a project and is I meet with the project manager and they have to explain the project to me very technical. I didn't understand that. Most of the time I don't understand the technical part, but I need to understand enough to make the research and to make to provide the result that I'm being asked because I I don't know. Let's say I'm gonna do a work in a project that is is about PVC the component and and I I need to understand what is this? So I get into I get in touch with the problematic his friends to me. Then I realized, OK, I need to go this way for the research and I need to put that into a document. The deliverables are 30 to 40 to 50 pages long and they have to analyze all the information and put it into this. So I became very good in that. So I, I don't know, I'm able to make myself understandable, very easy to non lawyers. And I realized that and that's where he wanted to be. And because the best thing about doing what I do is the fact that I I can be able to do my job and at the same time I can be a dad and I can enjoy, for example, the afternoons women son. And because when my afternoons are Europes night, so they're not going to send me the e-mail. So I have the afternoon for my son so I can play. It can take me to the playground. We can go have a nice friend. So he has allowed me to work to be good at my job and also to be a present that. So that's what I value the most. And that's why I keep I wake myself every day trying to maintain these status school because he he has given me the greatest opportunity to be with my son. And for me, that's the most important part of my life. Amazing, Very, very interesting. I really appreciate you sharing a little more about your, your working. What that looks like, I'm curious to know here. I've read a little bit about your career and, and researched a little bit on your LinkedIn and I saw that you often say that law should enable innovation and not slow it down. So I wanted to know, you know, in practice, what does that mindset look like when you're working with researchers and with entrepreneurs? I believe if issue law law is a career as a lawyer, you developed a lot of skills that normally are not used in an innovation research tool because we're layered. You're being taught to little gay sometimes to eat corporate counsel or to Disney aspect that when you start digging into what innovation is really all about to start realizing that that that below needs to be aligned with all we need to work together as a lawyer. You need to kill yourself up to date to focus on if the world is going that way. You need to go with them. And as some lawyer when they used to innovate. In my point of view, especially as a Colombian, because we're very traditional, we want views. It's very hard to get out of your comfort zone to to look for other scenarios. In my line of work, when you work with researcher project, work with entrepreneurs, you give you need to give them something new, something different than everybody else is giving them. Especially, for example, for researchers, I have a people who I work with, they're all about innovation. So everything they want to hear is something new because that's what they're actually researching for. And when you come as a traditional lawyer and you don't adapt to the same environment, you're not going to be able to collaborate at the same rhythm as they are doing it. So you need to keep the same pace as they are going because otherwise they're they're going to find that OK, we cannot work with that lawyer because we are still the traditional into, into these aspects. Something that I very find myself is very particular is that here in Colombia they teach us that the more you write or the more you speak, the better lawyer you are. And in Europe, NBA's are one page or two pages. So if you're a lawyer and you're not able to adapt yourself to this what the what you're working environment is demanding of you, you're going to live. We left behind. Yeah, there's a lot of lawyers who do the same way. I consider myself a, I don't know, an outsider to my profession because I see, I see my profession in a way that we need to change a lot of things. We need to innovate. We need to be able to transform our profession into something new, to something good, into something that has not been done in many times and we lose the fear of changing is gonna be a lot better for our our profession, for our work. We, we need to evolve with everybody. And in Europe, they RI a world is moving very fast. So if you want to be a lawyer to participate here, you need to go out the same pills, otherwise they're gonna leave you behind. And to be honest, I don't see myself in liquidating here in Colombia, but I don't see myself going to court here in Colombia. I don't know. It's not this the way I see the law. So I see it as an innovation tool. I see it as a way to practice. I see it a way to work with many people to collaborate, to devolve. So that's why pretty much what we do. Very, very interesting putting all of these pieces together here and in the point you just mentioned that when you were working with your brother, then you opened your own website and all of that. I understand that should be your current company, right? The legal expert lies and service. So I, I want to hear a little more about that. You know, what problems were you seeing in the market that really made you build that row in that in that company where you know those things that you were seeing as you worked with your brother already part of this or how did that come about? Actually, they did. Legal Experience is a service that I just gave it a name because I didn't know it was doing it. So it's, it's very funny because I was, I mean, my brother, he moved to Colombia. So I started to take care of his business and something. So he started asking me for a lot of questions or topics that I didn't I didn't know, for example, tax law. I don't practice tax law. So I started to look for lawyers who can help us in this situation because I believe one of the main issues that I see as that I have been seeing in my, in my expertise is that lawyers tend to think to know everything. And there are yes, person. So here in Colombia, you can ask the lawyer that he practices family law, if he knows about criminal law, he says yes, just to keep the client. And I think as lawyers, as a professional, we need to be able to realize when we don't know and we need to bring somebody else. So we need to, I'm, I'm a person who I, I don't know everything, but I'm pretty sure to know who does know you, whatever you're looking for. So I find the right person. So I started doing this with my brother just connected me with experts and I started to translate it just be the liaison between my brother and the and the and the legal expert. And a couple years ago, I I was looking something to, you know, to innovate to look for other service. OK, yes, I have EU here in Colombia didn't have anything and one conversation with my wife, she was like and you're doing something like like bridging with your brother. So I'm like OK, so I didn't want to put bridge. So I started looking for synonyms and liaisons and the something very good. So I said, you know what, I'm going to do a naval experience. And So what I basically do is that I'm a bridge between entrepreneurs and lawyers. I correct you with the right expert and I help you. I hope the entrepreneur to be able to get this sorted out of your head. Leave it in my hands. I'm gonna, I'm, I do all the communication with the lawyer. I translate because normally when we were mentioning people tend to write a lab and 1 Something that happened with my brother was that he asked for a constitute a big loafer and they gave us a 25 pages memo. When my brother sold that he told me horse I don't have time to go 25 you read it and give it in 10 minutes. So I started to OK and and I was already doing my translation for a year. For for. Complex legal to to practical legal. So I decided to adapt this year. So what I make sure to offer my clients is that I don't only find you the right lawyer, I find you the the right person who is a lawyer. Because all the people that I have as an allies, I make sure that there are great people, that they're your parents or they're single people, that you can have a cup of coffee. If you have finished talking about business, you can sit down and have a cup of coffee. I don't agree with lawyers who only focus on the money only I, I, so I find people, all the colleagues that they have been able to find and, and be my allies are friends of mine, people that I work with and that I worked in the past who study with me, who I can vouch for then. And tell me, you know what, these guys are good person. He's not going to only care about. No, he's the person who is going to ask you about your family. Or if you sometimes you have to cancel a meeting because your son is sick, then I'm going to make a big deal. So I don't work with people who will lose the sight of the human part of the law. And I don't also work with with clients who cannot understand that you are a person behind who call you up of ours who corpulent Saturday with no, no, no, I make and my whole idea of practicing the law is based on the human what's on the person. Otherwise, it's not is not sustainable to use our term that I use a lot of my work because you need to find somebody who's I don't know, there's a person you and I can have talked business, but if we come out, we meeting in a coffee, we can have a coffee can talk about your family. So this is for me, that's, that's the best part of what I do. So I, I focus my Nikon explanation that and so far I like it and building my network. It hopefully becomes bigger and brings all our clients around the world because it's Colombia have people in Salvador, Peru. Now Canada have near the US and people who I don't know, I mean, don't reach for everybody's experience. So I that's another good part about being a legal explanation because I get to know a lot of people. I get to know a lot of profiles. I get to learn about new things. So it's it's amazing. Fantastic, No, it's being so fun to learn a little more about your story and, and also like what makes you, you in in many ways as a professional, but but also as a person. And, and to wrap up today's episode, I wanted to ask you, you know, looking back at your own career, what is maybe one of the, the honest pieces of advice that you would give to students or early career professionals in law, or maybe even that you would have given to yourself if you could give it to, you know, Jorge, going to law school and, and thinking about building an international legal career. So think outside the box. I teach me to. Everything I have been able to do in my life is because I got a little off track and I realized that every setback that I have had in my life has given me the strength to to just stand up and to keep going forward. A and to us mentioning I I'd love to ask things. The worst thing they can say is no. Now I am in a in in a position because of that is that I'm able to tell a student. You see my example, I was not the best student in law school. Make sure I'm the best person to to see the opportunities and to reach out to the opportunities. And because of these things that I've been doing, I've been able to be for example, right now I'm part of this initiative that is the third law initiative. And I arrived to this initiative as a serendipity moment. I I was not meant to be in one in one another extras. And I give you the opportunity and I took it and I chased the person who's in charge of the Ted load through a hole to give my resume and she invited me. And right now, I mean this, this big initiative to transform the law and it makes me extremely, I think that's one of the best things I'm I'm doing in my professional career because I think to be in a position, I have a saying that that says that in a work that we are right now that many people are focusing on dividing and polarizing everything to being an initiative to be part of something that is creating something that is changing something from the group is something that you have to be proud of. So it might it might experience. Ted Law has given me the tools at the scenario 2 participate. This is just started so I I can be saying that I'm part of the of the foundations of of this initiative. So when I talk to students, I tell them, you know what? Chase for the dreams, aim for the sun. You make it a *. Ask the questions and there's nothing wrong with asking. Last week I sent like 30 messages on LinkedIn to tell people if they want to see My Portfolio for EU from the projects. 15 have replied and and all of them has asked me to send them back they prefer. If I had not asked I wouldn't be where I am and I was still here today and the kids. If I am not asking my wife out about 7 years ago, I probably would have a son and did my beautiful family. So when I told my my students, I tell them, you know what, chase your dreams, think outside the box. Don't, don't think that because you're Colombian lawyer you cannot go abroad. Yeah, focus on the English of course, but there's right now there are networks everywhere to join Juju looking Linton, it has to be part of some initiative. Whatever do it, people are going to to, I don't know. I I told my son that a lot of times you want something ask for you are just chasing. Don't settle with the no yeah, maybe one day they have 15 days ago. I say maybe they have to change their mind. I don't know. But I, I don't, I don't like to be, to go out at night and say, you know, I, I was hesitant to go to New York for the meetings that I met the tech. And now I say, what if I didn't trust my God and, and, and didn't go? What if I didn't ask? If I hadn't asked if I was going to be able to be in that panel, I wouldn't be the, I wouldn't have the opportunity that I have right now. And it was just a question. It was just one question. I told my wife I wanted to be in this funny. I went to and she's like, no, but they already gave you one. One day. I said, you know what? I'm gonna ask the world. Syracuse says no. And they they did say no. But eventually they they called me and they say, hey, you wanna be there and say yes. So to all the law students around the world, look for them. Look for the opportunities. I looked through almost 100 universities because before going to France because when my dad told me you should move to study in the in EU world, I look a lot. I had a excel sheet, my mic so knowledge is very very bad. I got over 100 university I sent emails to everywhere and when the the moment I set foot in France, I wanted to be the next year also because I moved with the idea of being there forever and I started to send emails and I got the answer two or three weeks before I had I was already my mind was to come practice Colombia. So you need to go after it. Nobody's gonna give you the things in a silver platter is it does that doesn't work like that. And especially when you are, in my opinion, I, I, I come from a country that we need to fight a little bit more because we don't have the the same advantage is that maybe other people have. For example, I wish I can go to the states to Sally, but they ever need a visa, you repair me, blah, blah, blah. In France, I was able to do my LLM. I'm not able to practice law in France because I needed to do another barrier basically. But I I made it and I'm able to console companies in France. Why? Because I realized that this was the place to do. I enter a message with friends without knowing French. I and I did everything in Google and the professor told how did you do it? I say because I I look for the they asked me for grades in French. I had one great French I sent them and they had they had no idea my master wasn't in English the first year. But are you for the I don't know I I my life is that is is a whole experience of or just estimate. I told my wife that's when it went the the biggest example that I want to set to my son is to go for your dreams. If you see this girl that is you say go for it. Did you see this career that you want to do it? Do it. I have a dream that I, I, I want to go to to the Santiago and able to watch a Real Madrid Champions League with Barcelona, for example. I don't know, Everyday I found myself in one day I'm gonna go. I just don't know. I think about it and you know, you, you do what you have to do. That gives you their way, and if things work out the same way, you're gonna be there. So as three much why and my whole mindset that's. Amazing, That's amazing. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to coming to the podcast and share a little bit about your story and especially this this advice, you know, ask around, go after what you want. I love that. Thank you so much for for being here today. Alright, no. Thank you for the opportunity. I, I really like and, and thank you for the time of sharing. I know your podcast is listening all around the world and it's very, very, very wonderful to be here. Thank you.