"Always Do Instead of Don't": Navigating International Law & Adaptability with Hasan Mandviwalla

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I have the opportunity to host Hassan Mandevilla. He is a lawyer in Pakistan and is also a member of the International Bar Association and has been for quite a few years now, very active member. We've been connected through the IBA and I'm so excited to interview him today for for this episode. Thank you so much for tagging along, Hassan. Sure. Well, I think first of all, I want to say that I'm just an ordinary guy other than being a lawyer. I started my career in Pakistan. But I'll rewind a little bit. I left for boarding school to go to the UK, I'd say in 2004 and I spent about 11 years in the UK and that's from boarding school through law school, through the Sisters qualification, doing a little bit of paralegal and then deciding to sort of make my way back to Pakistan to start local law practice over here. I think that in itself from going from a Pakistani high school to a very English style environment. I went to Westminster school was already my first phase of adaptability, right? Like I, you know, was I was given a, you know, we had our assembly in Westminster Abbey, right. So that that was quite a big change from what I was experiencing over here. I think Fast forward there. And that's exactly the point I'm trying to make, right. Adaptability to any kind of scenario is what really refines and strengthens you as a lawyer coming back after 11 years, you know, from a common law system that works to Pakistan, which is a common law system that you know, has issues with enforcement and arguably doesn't work right, And you are kind of intrusted to make it work. It really speaks to the fact that adaptability is what you need to kind of put into the system to get the outcome out of it. So that's me in a nutshell. So that's awesome. I'm very excited to hear a little more about, you know, your practice, your story. I'm curious now you just mentioned, you know, the, the, the training in the UK, the adaptability points. And I'm curious here, looking back at those early days. First of all, I'm curious, was there anything specifically that that made you decide should go towards law? And it also, once you chose law, was there anything that made you the side you're working king, corporate work, regulation, the work you do nowadays? You know, it's, it's interesting, right? You always identify, at least in the early parts of envisioning what a lawyer is. You always identify it with power circles because you watch those TV shows, you know, you are whoever you're kind of going to for advice is somebody who's secure 20 years into their career, a partner at a firm or someone that is kind of, you know, really at the top of its game, right? And and you envision that for yourself almost immediately. OK, so so that becomes attractive in itself. And then when you, you're, you're a little bit misled when you do the summer internship in these schemes, because there are week long of being in an office that is probably better than the circumstances that you're you're inhabiting in your apartment or, or your home, you know, or whatever it is. And I'm not, you know, not not to downplay, obviously we're all blessed. But the point is, you know, these big city firms, it's it's quite attractive. So, you know, that gets you into a little bit of excitement saying if I were to make it, would it be like this? And I think that thought in itself is enough, right? Like, because that's not what your story is going to be. That's the thought that it starts with, right? And thereafter you just kind of, you know, it's manifestation again, right? I mean, this is people talk about manifestation. But if you think big city firm, you may not get big or firm or city, but you get one of these those 3 permutations, right? I will say I will qualify the fact that I do come from a family of lawyers. So there was a little bit of arm twisting, you know, maybe from birth. But having said that, you know, I think that's where that's where your dream starts and and and you find your way that eventually. Amazing, very, very exciting and, and I saw that where you're working now, your firm has been involved in in major transactions, including, you know, landmark telecom deals. I'm curious, you know, behind the scenes, how do you, you know, handle work at that scale? I know that you wake up very early to start with, but I'm curious to know also, you know the those personal habits both at work and at. Home, you know, I mean what you were seeing on LinkedIn is is is also very recent, right? I, I came back to Pakistan to practice in 2000 and 13, I'd say after five years of practice, you know, I was like, OK, maybe this makes a little bit of sense, but honestly speaking, I don't think, you know, anyone knows what they're doing until they're in a decade of practicing law. It's, it's really, you know, the staying power. So I mean, habits aside, right? I, I just think for, for any lawyer, it's longevity is, is a large part of your success. And that brings you transactions, that brings you credibility into the market, that brings you fun work as well, right? Is, you know, rewind and, you know, you're starting to do your rent cases, you're doing your powers of returning, you're doing your property documents. And not to say that, you know, those are those revenue generating practice areas, right? Evolve into a cutting edge transactional disputes lawyer you, I mean you need to be there in the market needs to see you slowly and surely making moves. Fantastic. No, very, very interesting. And I also saw that alongside your practice, you're very active, as I had mentioned, in the International Bar Association. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about, you know, your experience participating not only in the annual conferences, but also, you know, in the, the committees, the sections. So I'd love to hear, you know, a little bit about, like, how your involvement with the bar has also changed the way you think about law and even how you envisioned your own career. You know, I think that's a that's a very interesting question because being from Pakistan, like we are from a jurisdiction that struggles with relevance, right? We're not an internationally developed the market like India, for example. So there are, you know, you're fighting for the international work that comes in between firms because it it is scarce, right? The International Bar Association. I would definitely off network, which is 5000 plus firms. You could imagine the multiple of lawyers that are coming and attending. You really do develop the ability to contact anybody worldwide for any kind of issue that this world, you know, may be facing as far as law or any kind of commercial matter is concerned. So it's it's really great. You know, I remember going to the first annual conference in Miami and seeing all those rooms and not knowing how to navigate and wondering why have I even come here? But then Paris, you know, Mexico, I was on panels. I Canada. Unfortunately, I couldn't make it. I, I was scheduled to be on, on some panels and I do webinars and, and the, and the, the smaller community conferences all the time. And you know, it's great. I made some weird friends. No, that's awesome. I'm have you have you heard that as a, as somebody who's just getting acquainted with the International Bar Association? So it's been very fun to hear from members of it and thinking about, you know, your trajectory and all of that. I know many young, young lawyers or early career professionals might, you know, always be thinking that they need a very like straight, narrow path that leads to success. You talked about, you know, the big firms and and all of those experiences, but I wanted to hear a little bit about, you know, in in your experience, how those you know, early roles, internship and even, you know, sharks stints end up shaping a career in the long term. Well, I think everybody's path is different, right? Like even if you've got the best grades and the kind of credentials to get into, let's say the top city firms, right? It may not happen just because there's so much competition and you know, markets are kind of downsizing worldwide, etc. So what eventually ends up mattering is I think there are certain push points, right? So by by internships, the objective is not to kind of go to these firms and sit around and get bored. The objective is to kind of meet those partners who you could potentially remain in touch with so that you could continue having those conversations throughout your degree. And then subsequently so that even if there is no availability at the the firm that they are in or the firm that you internship at, there are conversations to be made to kind of point you in a certain direction. So networking, you know, people downplay networking at different points of their career, but I think the culmination of networking, I mean, you can't start networking once you practice for 10 years. You know, it has to be a natural progression all the way through. I think in what, what I think what students probably leave out. And you know, I think all of us are partially to blame because we're engineering student life is, is going to those law firm networking events, you know, just putting yourself out there so that, you know, you remain in touch. I mean, things were maybe a little bit different in our time because there was no WhatsApp and there was no kind of immediate connectivity. But, you know, take advantage of the digital age, right? Like it's very easy for some someone who's at the top of their career to take interest in you and say, well, give me a call and come and have a cup of coffee with me, You know, So that's that's an important part of kind of navigating your own path. And then I think secondly, you may not end up in the kind of practice area that you think you will end up in. You might not be a financial services lawyer, right? But one thing's for sure, you know, you should try and get noticed. I think what you know, what you're doing with the podcast, I mean, you obviously much more at senior. You're not you're not back in the student game. But I'm just saying something that is kind of pushing boundaries and something different. You know, take maybe the pro bono that that I do or something, you know, kind of like what you do being part of something different is always a more appealing conversation. You know, everybody talks about the same law stuff, right? You need to make it a little bit distinct to get noticed. That's fantastic. I really appreciate you sharing that. And in your, in your current role as a partner at a law firm, why didn't you hear a little bit about, you know what? What skills do you value most in junior lawyers that don't always show up on their resume? You know, I think it's so interesting, right, because when you get a resume in front of you and even when you're interviewing, right, it's just there, the role that these colleagues and associates develop into is so it's so much more than that interview and that resume has to offer. You know, we just made one of our colleagues our partner as well. And this is the first. I mean, we're a small firm where niche firm. It's the first time that we've kind of, you know, someone who's been with us for a significant period of time. We've made them partner. We have a young team and I think youth is, is, is is, is is quite appealing in the sense that those that are acquainted with the digital age can really, you know, they create a bridge between, let's say, the slightly older generation and what's happening now in the world, right? Because clients are all adapting by way of their, you know, large infrastructure and machinery. And, you know, even if you take a multinational, they depend on their above country systems and all of that. But I think it's important to have like a young, vibrant, enthusiastic team so that they can kind of connect law firms from a slightly older ages to the new age to kind of adapt and provide the service in a manner that's required by clients today. Very nice. Thank you for sharing that. And to close today's episode, I wanted to ask you, is there, you know, some kind of advice that you give to young lawyers who are trying to build a meaningful, sustainable career, especially for those looking into international cross-border work are really just to have a good, fulfilling career that they will be able to, you know, enjoy and have these connections across the globe. Look, you're, you're gonna, you're gonna encounter hundreds of failures, right? Again, failures are not like, OK, like it's it's never the end of the world, right? So I think earlier on in, in, in one's career, you know, I mean, when I, when I would lose a case or not get the injunction that I thought, you know, that I set out to get my days would just be full of darkness, right? But I think my only advice is just chill. It's OK and always do instead of don't do OK, because I've seen, and I've seen with myself as well, there have been opportunities which, you know, out of some other commitment, a worker otherwise or maybe out of sheer laziness, right? You just kind of pass them by. But when, when you, when you, when you take those opportunities which you think are, you know, kind of mediocre, it's still a better outcome for you. So always do instead of. Don't do you know? I really appreciated Hassan. Thank you so much for taking the time to sharing some of your thoughts here in the podcast. No, thank you very much. This is another fun and you know, hopefully gonna get to do much more together. Absolutely. And thank you all for tuning in.