Lunar Heritage, Dark Skies, and Space Diplomacy with Gregory Radisic

Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths whether you're planning. To study abroad thinking about. Working in another legal system or just curious about how law works around the world? This podcast is for you. Today I'm interviewing Gregory Radzik. He has a very interesting area of law in which he works and studies. He's a fellow on the Centre for Space, Cyberspace and Data Law. He's also a PhD candidate at the Faculty of Law of Bond University. He holds a JD and LLM and is also an admitted barrister and solicitor in Alberta. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today, Gregory. Happy to be here, very excited to talk to you. Thank you. And to start over podcast, I'd love for you to introduce yourself and maybe tell us a little bit about how did you find your way into international and space? Law. Yeah, I would love to. So my name is Gregory Radisic. I'm a Canadian lawyer. Besides what you mentioned, I'm also a teaching fellow at Bond University. Oh, now I'm I'm stepping to the roles of a of a teacher and teaching the next generation sharing my cautions. Alright. My work basically sits at the intersection of international law, regulation and legal governance. And all of that hinges on how quickly we're moving technologically around the world, especially in the aerospace industry. I didn't start in space. My background was initially in science, in corporate law and during law school. That's when these ideas started kind of becoming cultivated. I realized that ever became very interested in how law responds knowledge key moves faster than does right. So I got into space law basically just by luck. I was doing some internships at the UN and ended up going to do an internship at the UN space office called the United Nations Office of Outer Space Affairs, which sounds very, very impressive and exciting. But I realized doing policy work in legal work there was just kind of the same as anywhere else. You're trying to provide your clients with good, timely information. And if you can't find it, you're kind of doing your giving your best guess. And as I was working in that system, it was pretty visible. You're working in the threads that were made in the 1960s, some 1970s. But really, you know, last 50 years, there's been principles and guidelines being agreed upon, but not much in terms of hard international law in the treaty form. And that's what a mismatch because innovations move really well. You know, if you think about the first moon Lander versus one of the yes, so the rocket technology is the same, but the science so important, it's very different. I thought, well, why hasn't got caught up and that's when I got interested. I then was able to work at the European Space Agency in the office of the Director General, but really showed me the side of space diplomacy. And then I began kind of going all in. So I did my LLM, which is where we met. I'm at the University of Toronto and after that I am during that and after that I've been working pretty much pro bono in a number of international organizations helping them with their advocacy work, whether that's for all mankind when she mentioned which works. Do you advocate for protections and international legal protections for objects that are based on the moon? So think of the Apollo Lander or the first footprints or Luna two. We don't have any style treaty those objects or with the the centre of Centre for Space Cyberspace and Data Law, which is an Australian body that really is looking at the intersection of all of those items and all those technologies and seeing how can we ethically use data and AI and tech in the space industry. We think forward. So it's been really interesting. It's definitely an exciting career. You've talked to a lot of interesting people, but it's not rocket science like to say it's just international law. So yeah, that's a little bit about my story and my kind of upbringing in space law. I. Guess love that. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. It is kind of a niche area, right? I imagine that you know, from all your cohort of, of law colleagues that I don't imagine that that more than you and someone else might have been studying this area, which I find it like fascinating of how much you can do with a law degree always. And, and I'm curious to know as well, you know, you said it kind of happened to you, Esther. Now like over 100 interviews into podcast, I've, I've learned that there is a lot of people that would say things like I, I ended up choosing to go to law school because of XYZ and I stayed in the profession because of, you know, the disorder points. I'm curious as well when when talking about, you know, space law, you know, you mentioned a little bit of the, the path of how you got there. But I'm also curious to know a little more about like why did you decide to stay with this area of law? Yeah, great question. So not the first time I've been asked that question. I was working in an area of criminal law, broadly called national security law. And when I first stepped foot has a UN intern will not step foot says first started working, I guess as the UN intern. I was working for the terrorism prevention branch of the UNODC, which is the Office of Drugs. And that was really interesting. So passionate was going to law school. I was like, I wanna do this national security law stuff. It's really interesting. It's you know, I I want to work for my country. I would love to kind of help with that whole infrastructure. And I was working with chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear weapons prevention. So there's a few treaties that exist worldwide and we're getting countries in southern part of Africa to sign onto the treaties and have us planning large conferences and writing, editing large scale reports that are now published in the website was really exciting. But I realized that that area falls very pessimistic and it looked at what kind of the worst of humanity in a way, right. So you have these people and they're really trying their best. Yeah. Humanity is persistent and causing more and more problems. And it's a definitely a very needed area of law. Everything that they do is fantastic. And I would there again in a heartbeat. But I then space because it had a lot of the same elements that had national security elements that have a lot of defence considerations. You basically either work for a government or a large national organization or or a company that in turn has contracts with those players. But it's way more optimistic. You know, if you think about the major inflection points in history, the Cold War, for example, that was happening, but somehow Russia and the United States were eventually able to work together on projects like the International Space Centre and Space Station. And no matter how crazy things got on Earth, for whatever reason, they put those differences aside to work together in those domains. And that's only increased. You know, there are now way more spacefaring nations than there once were. You have China and Canada that are way more present emerging space nations that some countries are just Adelaide. And it really an area of law and an area in industry where you're trying to pull each other up and bring people with you for the technological innovations that exist and that come alongside space. So I found it very positive and that's why I made that shift. It motivates you. You work with variant trusting people. No, I'm very lucky. I can count many rocket scientists and people who own based companies that do everything from defence things to but I don't know, launching rockets in space. And they're my friends and I get to talk to them everyday and, you know, hear their legal problems and what they're dealing with. And it's kind of funny. At the end of the day, it's the same legal problems that have a start up for a coffee shop didn't have, you know, I'm having a procurement problem. I don't know how to get something across the border. I don't know where I should put my money or what, what I how do I attract someone to like it's all of these kind of very basic business fundamentals, but applied to a really interesting industry with. So yeah, it's been, it's been really fun and that's why I made that shift and that's why I've stayed in that niche. But you're very right. There's not many people doing it in Canada. I saw an interview with someone and it said there's a very generous handful now of space lawyers in Canada. And there's so, and that's two categories. There's the ones that have been teaching and are probably 60 plus now. And then now, which is really interesting. There's this new guard of very inspired kind of 20 to 30 year olds that are now seeing this as a, as a possible profession. And it's, it's really interesting when you go to these international forums and you go, oh, there's another one, there's another Canadian one there, there's another Australian one. But yes, it's been fairly very, very interesting exploring this niche and I definitely will be sticking with. It amazing, no very, very insightful to you to learn a little more about this. And I was doing a little bit of a research before us getting together here today and I saw that your specific research touches on on very big questions like lunar heritage, dark skies and peaceful uses of outer space. So I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit more about that and, and maybe even why those issues were really matter, you know, legal perspective and, and for like society more broadly. So all of those issues are about how should we as a global community treat a global Commons, right? So that's a, an area of the world where everyone, ideally everyone has some form of access to it, not just physically but technologically and also access to the benefits of it, right? So why should Canada fit from space more than, I don't know, Mozambique, typically, you know, they, we both have of opportunity to benefit from the resources that come out of space, benefit from technology that's used in space. So that's not necessarily how things have been working thus far. And that's really been motivating me to focus my writings in that area. Both disputes should be resolved in that area on ways in which diplomats and Vienna and Geneva, NY should be discussing these issues. I'll give you one example. So this week, very timely that you and I are talking this week, Elon Musk announced, well, not Elon Musk, but SpaceX announced that they've filed paperwork with the FCC to put a million satellites in orbit. For context, there's maybe 11 to 12,000 satellites in orbit right now. So right now when you look at the night sky, you don't really, maybe you'll see some things from a city, you might see something moving. And if you go into the rider far north in Canada, you'd definitely see some things moving. But when it comes to 1,000,000 satellites, you'll look up and you'll see 20,000 at any given spot where you are. It will completely change what the night sky looks like. So for the first time in human history, the next generation will have the same view of the night sky as the current one if this plan goes through. I'm not saying it should, not saying it shouldn't, but that's a consideration that needs to be made on, you know, is there some way we can mitigate that? Who allows that? He filed paperwork with the United States. Is that all you need to do? Because it's going to impact a child in the Inuit who maybe uses the night sky for six months of the year to find their way across the Arctic and hunt, or it might affect someone in South America because they'll now have an impacted view. Right. And, and those are almost more like social sociocultural questions of like, what changes when, what changes for the next generation? And that's the same with my work with Franklin on Lunar Heritage. Do we want a legal regime where it's finders keepers? If my company is created tomorrow to go to the moon, bring back every artifact from every mission that's happened in the past 7080 years and put those into auction. Is that something that should happen? Should that not be in a museum? And you've you've kind of been seeing if you were to do a quick Google search, you'd be seeing overtime more and more of these kind of space relics finding their way into it makes you a lot of money. If anything has been to the moon and come back, even if it's a bolt or you know, you'll see some funny things will be like piece of insulation from the Apollo mission or something and it'll go for thousands and thousands of dollars. So you can imagine the profits to be made. But what do we lose as a human species if I land my rocket next to the sender and I wipe footprint that was on the move, right? Should we not protect that area? Should we not, I don't know, save it to inspire the next generation in some way, shape or form? How that looks like right now is to be determined. But, you know, these are questions that 20 years ago, you, you probably talked to your law professor or your lawyer friends and they'd be rolling their eyes out. And now it's genuine conversations that are happening. You know, we have the first lunar mission in decades going to the moon. That was supposed to be this coming week. It's not been rescheduled tomorrow. Who knows if it'll happen on time, But they're going to the moon and back for the first time. They want boots on the ground in the coming years. They want to establish things like lunar bases. And a lot of these conversations are ongoing. They're moving slowly, but it's not unless people advocate for some change that those perspectives will be included in what the future of space look, impacts that can have on such a global, global area of law. And that has very global implications for everyone. Wow, extremely insightful, Very, very interesting to to hear a little bit about that. And it really gets you thinking. I can see how it's really fascinating to to work with that and get to discuss these topics every day. Something that I always like to bring up to the podcast here. So as, as you might know, a lot of the, the listeners here in the podcast are early career professionals and, and some of the questions that I end up getting every once in a while where about, you know, ask lawyers a little more about, you know, their careers and, and how they go about doing things. And something that I, and I thought it was quite impressive is that you, you're balancing, balancing, you know, legal practice, you're teaching your studying PhD, you are, you know, doing research and policy, policy work. So I wanted to ask you a little more about, you know, how do. You find balance. And how do you decide where to focus your energy and and maybe you know, what kinds of trade-offs do you do know to be able to handle all of these things at the same? Time. Good question. I think in law school, and you might have experienced this yourself, Claudio, is there's a really efficient funnel that's been made for students entering law school, getting a job at a law firm, usually either corporate side or criminal family side articling and then ideally staying in that job until you retire 40 years from now. And that's that's worked for a long time. Occasionally you have people that push outside of that model, even just on a basic level, if you think 100 years ago, there are people who said no, instead it'll be a politician or even working for the government in certain ways that are unique. So it was interesting school, some professors, lot of people didn't, a lot of peers did not. And they go, how are you going to make a living working in international law? You'd hear phrases like international laws not really a thing. So it's corporate international law or you know, you have to pick up a niche and that's fair. But international law is definitely a thing and it's definitely a thing that a lot of people pursue and do. I find that you have to make a decision, you have to have a sense of certainty in yourself, and then you just have to go for it and persevere. And it takes years and years, to be frank, but if you keep applying for, you know, for, for scholarships to go and attend some of these conferences or apply for internships or papers, well, you might find yourself in rooms and then eventually you'll realize maybe that is the place I should be. And I do now blog in it because I've, I've been in it one time. So the second time is not so hard. And yeah, so I think I'm, I'm struggling to remember your question, but I think moving from law school to practice is challenging no matter what. And chewing that in an area that's unique and kind of less frequently followed requires a a lot of a step upper lip, a lot of perseverance, a lot of adaptation. So how have I done? It was your question. And I find that I'm very curious and I can get very bored easily. And that was one of the things I didn't like with a purely corporate league practice. I used to work at a law firm and while it was a fantastic learning opportunity, let me kind of what areas I I'm not interested in great skills, you know, so I think you need to learn somewhere. I'm choosing where you articles always very important. If you can do that in a large national firm, what an amazing opportunity to learn, but it doesn't mean you have to stay there for the rest of your life. So when I right now I work remotely and I work remotely for a government organization in Alberta. I also do all my pro bono work kind of around the clock, whatever people are available because I am now based in Brisbane, Australia. And there are others that are, I work with people in Europe, I work with people in North America, I work with people in South America. So a lot of different time zones and, and scheduling conflicts, but you know, you wake up early and you have a meeting at 4:30 in the morning, but that means you get to meet with a rocket scientist and Alabama and a startup in Vienna. That that's really interesting. It's really cool. And you put your passions and then the the teaching and everything kind of fits in conversation based on legal profession. You know, it's maybe it's a bit early for me. I just turned 30. But like, the idea of giving back and helping to, again, bring people with you is very ingrained in space industry, like I said, And it's also very ingrained in the legal industry, although sometimes some lawyers do it more than others. So I always find it very important to try to share the knowledge that I've gained, try to share the insights of my research, connect with as many students as possible, and then bring them into the fold if there's an opportunity to do so. So that's why I have that teaching elements and lecturing elements to my career. But yeah, like, I don't think a legal practice has to be just one thing. I think you really do benefit from having multiple different avenues in it. And, you know, you have the typical corporate job, you have some promo work, you have some advocacy work and teaching work. And that really just makes you a better lawyer, I think, at the end of the day, because you learn from people in each one of those spheres. Alright, I had two whatever problems in front of you. Because really, at the end of the day, law is just solving people's issues and problems. It's trying to make it simple for them. So yeah, that's kind of been the process going forward. It can be chaotic, but it's definitely worthwhile. It's worth the early mornings or late nights. Every single. Time. Fantastic. They're very happy to hear that it. It's funny you just mentioned that because then I realized that it's probably like the morning for you now. 7:00 PM Toronto. Time what? 10 AM Australia. Yes, I'm in the future, so for me it's tomorrow. It's always interesting Yeah, scheduling can be rough because you go let's eat Friday at this time and they go Friday your time or my time because for me it's Saturday. It makes. A big difference. Yeah, some problems. You always makes a. Difference. Yeah, that's awesome. To to wrap up today's episode, I wanted to ask you, you know, if I were a lawsuit and listening to this episode and and I went to explore a little bit of space law, what what would you give as an advice for somebody who wants to have a taste of it? You will not sure if I want you to do this for the rest of my life, but thought I want to like dig in a little bit. What are a few maybe like papers to read or associations should being touched with and attend events of? Are there a few you know things that you would recommend? Yes, so it's funny. My advice would be don't start by getting into space law. See see more broadly what you like. So one take that weird course, then none of your friends are taking. If that's of interest to you, maybe start with an international law course. There's always a chapter on space. There's always a chapter on maritime law. There's a lot of Antarctic, Arctic conversations. A lot of these deal with global Commons. Even cyberspace in a way deals with global Commons. Start, start broad and then get more specific based on what you're reading, what you're liking. If you know you want to go into the space industry, Canada has such a vibrant space industry and a lot of the conferences are awhile. There's one called SEDS, SDS. I do not know the acronym, but it is basically geared up youth. There's another organization that's more international that always accepting people to participate in their their working groups and their conferences and it's called SG AC. So the Space Generation Advisory Council. And it's a Advisory Council that was made by the United Nations Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space and you and USA Office of Outer Space Affairs to really get the youth perspective. And they have legal working groups, they have industry working groups, They talk about policy, they talk about science, but it's really people under the age of 35 or younger. They have a conference every year that lines up with something called the International Astronautical Congress, which is the largest space conference in the world. It's usually the first 3 days of that and then for the rest of it you get to enjoy the larger comfort it will. How many people thought likely would become lifelong friends? I went last year and it's a fantastic entry point because there are some people who are working at, I don't know, Blue Origin in the United States and have had long careers and there are 34 and then there's the student that's 19 going. I think I'm just really interested in this. So I wanted to come and check it out. And they have fantastic scholarships full, you know, they'll pay for all your expenses, flights, everything to get out there. So as a space lawyer, you know, a young lawyer is usually between the ages of what, 21 in Canada and 35? So that's an Ave. where you can say, I really want to break into the space. Here's everything I've done in the past. I want to apply. I don't know, corporate law to space. Realistically, space law is just a combination of all these laws that exist on Earth and how it's applied into the space industry or is the global Commons more generally. So let's say you're interested in AI, mean AI or it's funny, like criminal law. Now Canada has a law about I think committing murder on the moon. And they changed their they changed their rules now in the Criminal Code to include kind of out of the country rules for that will apply to a lunar base one day or to the ISS. So there's a lot of ways you can combine law in unique ways with space. And those are conversations that really for the most part haven't happened yet. And you can get involved those lists. So those are great organizations where you dip your toe in very low, if no financial barrier to entry. And that's fantastic. And on a final note, the Canadian Space Agency has also fantastic scholarships. So anytime they have a grant and scholarship team, anytime that you write a paper or I get asked or pitch a presentation at one of these larger conferences, you can alley to them. Judith and again stipends to fly out treats in or if it's in Canada, they'll likely give you a statement for accommodation for food. And that's their way of really incentivizing and encouraging exploration in space from an academic standpoint for for youth. So they're also a fantastic Ave. Canada to to look at and consider. Fantastic. I really appreciate you taking the time to come into podcast, share a little bit more about this fascinating area and and also the very interesting projects you're you're researching and working on. And I hope you all enjoyed the episode and I'll see you on the next. Thank you so much. Bye.