Real-Time Resolution, The Keyboard Warrior Mistake, and the Business of Infrastructure Disputes with Sahil Shoor

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I'm hosting Sahil Shore, he's a leading litigation and dispute resolution lawyer with a wide-ranging practice focusing on commercial disputes and construction projects domestically and internationally. He was culture the bar both in Ontario and British Columbia and has an incredible story, lots of awards. So excited to have you here today. Thank you for joining in the podcast sale. Thanks very much, Claudio, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation and thank you for having me. Appreciate it. So to start off this conversation, I, I wanted to hear a little bit more about yourself. So can you please introduce yourself to our listeners and share about your journey into law and maybe even what led you to focus on construction on infrastructure disputes? Suddenly, Claudio, I'm Sahel Shore. I'm a partner with a law firm called Dawing WLG Canada LP. I have a national practice and I focus on project council and dispute resolution work in the construction and infrastructure projects in my practice. Practice sits at the intersection of law, lots of engineering issues in the lot of major infrastructure projects and I act for owners, contractors and then I say owners would public and private on some of the most complex infrastructure projects in the country and helping them navigate disputes when things don't go as planned. And it is a it is a very exciting time to be part of the infrastructure sector in our country. And I'm trying to do my part by by working with clients who are building some very fascinating other one projects for economy. Fantastic so so here in the more you know about the work that you've done in very complex high stake projects nationally. I wanted to hear if there was some specific moment now speaking about your career where you know, things maybe have felt uncertain and then how that shaped you into the lawyer you are today and and should give you a little context to that. A lot of my listeners here are early career professionals starting out right after law school or right after the NCAA. And we've been hearing a lot about, you know, the market being not so great right now or are all these things. But I'm finding very interesting that lots of my guests that come into the podcast saying, well, when I graduated that was happening, there was some kind of crisis or people weren't very optimistic about the market. So I want to hear what what's your story with that Very. Much so Claudio. So like you, I went through the NCA process and I article with a great mentor of mine now and he has been from the very first day at a sole practitioner in Thunder Bay ON and, and that was the best experience from both getting on to feet, learning the business of law, etcetera. And I joined the big firm that I am an equity partner at shortly after getting called to the bar. I studied science for undergraduate degree. Law was never part of the plan, but I did academic appeals for students during undergraduate degree while I was studying science at the Windsor, which I really enjoyed. And that led to going to law school in England, but decided to come back and rest is history to an extent. And I did a lot of moving, a lot of debating, a lot of a lot of the competitions during law school. So I was always drawn to environments where the stakes were high and I wanted to do the work that I am passionate about, especially when the stakes are high and the problems are complex and the outcomes actually shape the society that we live in. And infrastructure, in my view, is exactly that. These are the projects that define our cities, our economies, and our communities. And what really pulled me into that realization was that behind every dispute or every claim is just not a legal issue, but a story about risk communication and decision making under pressure. And that is human and strategic dimension is what keeps me deeply engaged in the work that I do and in terms of, you know, early career uncertainty, etcetera. And the question that you asked and to the listener who are early in their careers, certainly there was there was a lot of uncertainties. And I believe every lawyer goes through that. And certainly early in my career, there were defining moments where I felt like I didn't have all the answers. And in this field, the expectations are high very quickly. So you're dealing with sophisticated clients, very technical issues and significant financial exposure. So, you know, if I stop there, what shaped me during that time early in my career was realizing that you don't build confidence by knowing everything. You build it by learning how to think clearly under uncertainty. So, so I focused on asking better questions both internally to the partners at the time that I was working with or senior associates being relentlessly prepared and leaning into discomfort instead of avoiding it. You know, I, I still remember those days as if they were like yesterday. So looking back, Claudia Dose, moments of uncertainty were actually the foundation of my groups and they forced me to an extent to developed judgment early. And in my view, that's what ultimately drives and defines a strong lawyer or a strong advocate for your client. So much for sharing that. Very, very interesting to to hear your perspective on it and, and also what you went through personally. And as I read about the articles you've written, something that that you've put out there, I noticed that there is some, some thought about, you know, instead of moving from claims at the end, there's a lot of more of a thought on resolving issues during a project. I think that really matters a lot when we're talking about infrastructure, when we're talking about construction. And I wouldn't you hear some of that, some of your thoughts on that. How has that shift changed in, in the way you practice, in the way you see these projects? And what does that say to you about how the market, the profession, how old, the actors, the stakeholders are trying to be a more articulator, try to really, you know, achieve those things head on and from the beginning? Certainly, Ricardo, this is one of the biggest transformations that is happening in the industry at present. And if we take a step back, traditionally lawyers, not in-house lawyers, external lawyers like myself were brought in at the end of the project when the positions were entrenched and the relationships had already broken down. And at that time you're often managing damage rather than creating value. So what we have been doing and we have been doing successfully for our clients on major projects is a shift towards real-time dispute avoidance and resolution, whether through adjudication, whether through dispute boards or simply being proactive and playing a proactive advisory role. And that fundamentally changes the lawyers role. So you're no longer simply just advocates after the fact, you're becoming strategic partners during the project. So we are helping clients make better decisions in real time, preserve relationship and avoid disputes before they escalate. And I often tell my clients that the best dispute is the one that never crystallizes. And for the role that me and my team are playing, in our view, you know, the project council role as we describe it, certainly that is where the profession is headed on complex, very complex projects. And it is headed towards being embedded, towards being proactive and being commercially minded, right? Like if the project is delayed and if the project is delayed and that delay is costing your client, if your owner or what, whoever the case may be, yes, you may have a delay claim, but you may want to be able to resolve that issue head on because that end product that you're going to get, you want to be able to be able to use that end product. In other words, have the project completed. So having that commercial mind and being proactive to try to get ahead of the issue before the issue becomes the headline for how the project is described. You don't want that to be the case. You don't want to be your project that is being spoken about in the news for the project that becomes part of an inquiry. Amazing. Something else that that I've identified as well between, you know, your publications and all of that is that you have spoken about how disputes often build quietly before they become formal. So you just said a little bit about that, that very proactive role, not reactive, right? So if I may ask you, you know, what are some of the signs that lawyers who are really working together with the business can, can really help their clients to, to recognize early on? And and maybe to our young lawyer listeners here, all they can recognize those early as well from from being close to the business, from seeing the signs that basically dispute is on the way. In my experience, and you know, when we when I speak to my colleagues and partners around the country, I truly believe that disputes rarely start with the big moment. And I also truly believe that they build quietly. And some of the early signs are actually very subtle, a shift in tone and humanication, delays in responses or approvals, increasingly defensive language or overly foreign language that is being used in the communication. And the smallest of the smallest issue is being documented very aggressively. But this biggest signal is misalignment, when the parties stop having the same understanding of the projects. And in my view, both the great lawyers and the great clients who pay attention to those early signals, you can identify if you take a step back and really see like, are we getting into too much letter writing and becoming keyboard warriors? You know, you can if you've really paused, you can really tell if we don't stop this, there's a potential of this becoming a much bigger issues. Because Claudia, what happens is once position hardened, your options narrow significantly. And what I mean by that is that one of the most valuable things in external lawyer can do is to step in early and reframe the conversation before it becomes adversarial. That's not just a legal skill, that's judgment. And that's also emotional intelligence. You have to be able to speak to your project team, IE your client team. You have to be able to understand what their pinpoints are, and you have to speak their language. Amazing. Now digging more in your your career path, I see that it reflects, you know, a lot about, you know, a strong technical expertise, but also a lot of strong relationships. So I wanted to ask you, you know, in this career aspect now, how has mentorship, sponsorship played a role in your growth? I think you started this episode recognizing one of your mentors that you know, you, you first started your career on there. So I want to hear more about your experience with mentorship, with sponsorship, and how that has been playing a role in your career. For sure, Claudio, and and you know, mentorship, sponsorship is is has been truly I'm the byproduct of all of that. And you know, I don't forget about it and I definitely try my very hard to pay it forward. Does it truly believe no one built a career like like being able to do work on very complex projects alone? And I think it is very important to say that openly. I have been very fortunate to have strong mentors who have challenged me, but also sponsors who advocated for me when I was in in that room. You know, those are two very different roles, and both are very critical. I've had mentors my whole career. You know, I still have mentors both within the firm and outside the firm. And beyond formal mentorship, there's what I call your village. And by that I mean, you know, my peers, my colleagues, clients, and also opposing counsel who shape how you think and how you grow. And in that regard, I've always tried my very best to invest in relationships generally, you know, not thinking about them as a transaction because over time, your reputation is built not just on your technical ability, but on how you actually show up. And by how you actually show up, what I mean is you, your reliability, your judgment, and how you treat people under pressure. So that village becomes one of your greatest, greatest assets. I really appreciate this aspect. I love it being called, you know, your village and speaking. You know, drilling down in this point, I saw that you've been recognized widely with many awards by Chambers, Legal 500, Lexpert. But also we have to recognize anyone in this field would know that, you know, behind this achievements, there's a lot of work that people don't see. So I wanted to ask you, you know, what does the day-to-day look like as you were building it? Not not only right now, but you know through, through your career to, to really build this kind of career, one that is strong technically, one where relationships are valued and you build that village and also where you can be recognized for that work. Certainly Claudio, you know, the recognition is very much appreciated, but it's really just a byproduct. And what I mean by that is the day-to-day reality is much less glamorous. It's it's long hours, it's high expectation and also a constant need to stay sharp. And what I mean by that is staying sharp not just legally but commercially and strategically. And it's, it could be raising reading hundreds and thousands of project records or understanding technical issues very deeply or working with the expert team to really narrow down like, what does this actually mean? And being able to distill complexity into clear advice. And more than that, Claudio, it's also consistency, doing high quality work repeatedly, being extremely responsive, being dependable when it matters the most. So look, there has been no shortcut. It's built one file, one client, one decision at a time. And I think that's something people don't always see from the outside, but we have really high expectations of ourselves and of our people and of our work that goes out the door. So you know it is all of that and you have to be able to do it at all times. Absolutely, I appreciate you mentioning that it is the reality of, of the career and especially delivering at such a high level. And when, when we put in factoring all of that together, I wanted to ask you, you know, a little bit of what, what, what's ahead as well as we as we look online and all of that. I think every third article says something about AI and it is really interesting what can be done. There's a lot of filtering through the noise. There's a lot of different points, but specifically in your fields, you know, looking into infrastructure projects, this this growing complexity of the world's, a lot of things happening that are, you know, interesting in the, the geopolitical sphere as well. What do you think that lawyers will need, what kind of skills they will need to stay relevant and valuable when looking ahead into this next, you know, 5-10 years? What are some of your thoughts on on this conversation? That's when it comes to artificial intelligence because I find it fascinating firstly, but certainly glad your next 5 to 10 years or certainly going to reshape the profession and I hope it in meaningful way because in my view and it is only my view, AI will absolutely change how we process information, how we manage documents and even to an extent predicted outcomes. But what it will not do is replace judgment. If anything, I think it will amplify the importance of higher level skills and the lawyers who will thrive or those who can think strategically human, get clearly exercised judgment under pressure and understand their clients business and deeply. So the technical legal knowledge will always matter, but it won't be enough on its own. And you know, if I take a step back, Claudio, one of the things that I often think of is, and I, I think it in this way that AI will handle the answers, but lawyers will need to define the right questions. And in complex, complex infrastructure projects, those questions are everything. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for for sharing those thoughts there. They're very interesting and I appreciate you being so uplifting with them. Chu Sahil. Now to close up our conversation today, I wanted to ask you, you know, specifically thinking about our young lawyers here and, and maybe even thinking about you as a young lawyer a couple of years back. I wanted you to to share with us for those facing uncertainties, struggling to find their footing, or maybe just feeling a little bit discouraged with the first few outcomes that they get in in the career. What kind of advice would you give based on your experience? I really thought about that question for for some time and I would say three things. First, Claudio, I would say don't wait to be ready. You will never be ready. Speaking from personal experience, both in the past and even right now, I truly believe growth happens when you step into opportunities before you are fully comfortable. The second thing, Claudio, I will tell your young listeners is that focus on building judgment and not just knowledge. And what I mean by that is knowledge is accessible. However, judgment is developed through experience and reflection. And thirdly, invest in relationships early. It is crucial that you invest in relationships early and you don't, you know, you don't deal with relationships as if they are a transaction. And also to the young listeners, that your career is not just defined by what you know, but who trusts you. And that trust is built over time, through consistency, through integrity, and how you show up every day. So if I were to leave the young listeners with one thought, it would be this. That your career is a long game. Focus on becoming someone people rely on, not just someone who has the right answers, and everything else follows from that. I really appreciate you taking the time to come in the podcast and share your, your wisdom that you've, you know, built together over the this very exciting career of yours. Wanted to thank you for for all of that and appreciate also the listeners who took the time to to join in and listen to today's podcast. Thank you very much, Claudio. This has been a great conversation and I really appreciate the opportunity to share my perspectives.