Aiming for the Sun: Rebuilding and Reinventing Your Legal Career Across Borders

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. Today I have a very special episode. You're probably used to having me interview one guest, but today I have 3 guests and I'm so excited for this episode. I have here Jorge Barona, who spoke in the podcast before, and I'm welcoming him back on the show today. I have Elizabeth Saldana and Viviana Harrington. Thank you guys so much for making the time to come to the podcast today. And I'd love to start off with you introducing yourself to our listeners. I originally from Colombia. I'm a licensed attorney in Colombia, but also in the US. I got my license in the state of Missouri, and I have been practicing as in-house counsel for quite some years in the consumer services side. I also am a mom and have 5 kids at home. A wife, and, uh, yeah, with career and travel and owning a firm in Colombia also, we are pretty busy here. So my name is Elizabeth Saldaña and I'm originally from Mexico. I'm a licensed attorney in Mexico. I got a master's degree in international business law in France. I started as a corporate attorney and my practice in law has been that. And in the US, I've been not practicing law, but I've been in the legal field as a paralegal and I've been in litigation, immigration, business litigation. My name is Jorge. I'm Colombian originally, licensed attorney here in Colombia. I've been studying here. Back in 2013, I moved to France and I did my master's in international business law. And also after that, I did another master's too in European business law. I've been practicing law for the past 8 years, and now I specialize in doing some consultancy for companies that participate in projects that are financed by the European Commission. So I'm a father of a 4-year-old beautiful son, and that's pretty much my life. Amazing. I'm so excited to dig deeper into each of your stories here today. And to start this episode, I'd love to, you know, kind of look back into these incredible careers you guys just mentioned. It initially motivated you to move abroad, to, you know, continue seeking education internationally. I love to learn a little bit more about people's motivations and what led them to want to pursue their career or their education abroad. And also, if you can add to that, what What are some of the most valuable lessons that you gained that you could only have learned by going through that experience? I always knew that I wanted to do an LLM in the US. That was since I was my first year of law school in Colombia. I knew that was going to be my track. I was taking civil law and the presentation that I was assigned was always in common law, things like that. And I just fell in love with the system and the differences. What I didn't know is that halfway through that process, I would meet my husband. Who, well, my boyfriend back then, who is American, and that's where the Harrington comes from. So we've been married this year 20 years, and that's what brought me. Otherwise, I was thinking about doing an LLM, potentially passing the bar because I thought that was an edge no matter where I went. But my thought was initially to go back to Colombia and practice in Colombia. That didn't happen until 3 years ago, and I'm still doing both of them. As far as valuable lessons. Adjusting and being open-minded was probably the biggest one. I was, I wanted to go to a specific law school when I, when I moved and I only applied to that one law school and I got rejected. So that was a big hit. I had been a pretty good student. I had checked all the boxes and I could not understand why I had been rejected, but that took me actually through an MBA. So I started working for a firm in the legal team and I started managing a team there. And that helped me realize that what I needed to learn was business at that time. But then after a couple of years, I realized, no, no, no, no, no. What I actually love is law. So I went back and got my LLM and I applied to several law schools. I didn't make the same mistake twice and went through the path, but being open-minded and realizing that no goal is too far, that everything will fall into place and help, whether it's economic help or just Setting the goal is important and working towards that. It's, it's possible through your school, through relationships to friends, through other partners at law firms where you're at. So there's always a way. And that's a big one that I try to pass on. Well, I will say that me personally, I, I was driven by the challenge of studying abroad in another language because it will be easier in your native language. So I wanted to add a challenge and Also, I think I was curious about knowing another cultures and in, because we are close, Mexico is very close to US, so you basically have to be bilingual. I think in the beginning I was thinking this will get me in a better law firm or in a better company. And it's a journey of resilience, you know, it's a journey also when you realize years after that investing on yourself professionally is going to be always good. So I feel like rather than seeing this as an expense, it's an investment to yourself. Well, in my case was, uh, was getting fired from a job. I was working here in Colombia, very beautiful, in a company. Then I got a football injury. Then I ended up getting fired from the job. So I looked for many opportunities and I couldn't get anything. And my brother was living in Europe. He was living in Spain. One day my dad say, you're not doing anything here in Colombia. Why don't you just go? So I started to research a lot of universities and as Alissa said, I wanted a master's in a third language. I wanted the opportunity to be in another culture. So I, I make, I made a lot of research and I ended up in Lyon. So for me, it was wonderful. Then I stayed for another year because I really wanted to stay there. And by things of life, I came back here to Colombia and I realized after everything is that everything happens for a reason. When I got fired here in 2012, I felt the world was switched. falling apart in France in 2015, when I had the horrible job interview, I'll tell you later. And then I realized I needed to come back to Colombia and everything has been amazingly at the end. I wouldn't trade my life now for anything in the world because I'm exactly where I needed to be with who I needed to be and raising the person that I need to be raising. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. And I think that's great motivation. I love that each of you have had similar and different interests and motivations to pursue this. But I think that we may often hear that law is very local when we think about the career itself or legal studies. And in a way, I think we all proven that it might be local in a way, but those skill sets, those abilities that you really develop as you're practicing, they are very translatable. So I wanted to hear from you, you know, as you transitioned across borders to either study or work or in your current practice now, what are some new perspectives or skills that you developed in your day-to-day practice that you think that you can really give this international experience. Yeah, law is very local. It is, but the problems are worldwide. They're everywhere. You can see now the opportunities are there, the internet, there's a lot of tools that allow you to practice elsewhere. But in my case, something that was very difficult at first was to be able to be understood by other people rather than your own people in Colombia, especially in another language and in other disciplines. I work with people who are not lawyers. So it is a big challenge to make myself understandable to them. So all and to be and to adapt either something as small as time zones. I work with European time zones. So you need to learn these skills if you want to pursue a career in international, because I don't know, maybe I used to have a client that he was in Taiwan. It was all the way around the world. It was 12 hours difference. You need to be able to see this and take the opportunity and to adapt to the culture, to be able to have something that we call like intuitive collaboration. I mean, you don't, as lawyers, we're trained to, we know everything and we don't realize that maybe the comments, the insight that other people from your team can give you can add more value to what you're looking for. So don't be afraid to ask, ask the questions. Hey, I don't understand. That's okay to not understand. If you don't know anything, just bring help. So all these skills you need to develop in order, if you want to make it outside of, for example, here in Colombia, I need to ask a lot because I'm not in Europe. But I need to do it from here, make myself approachable. And all these kinds of things are extra besides the law. I will, I will say that I agree with, with Jorge in the, in the sense that you need to adapt all the time and you need to be open to another perspectives. But I think when you study abroad, it's kind of immerse yourself in another way of learning. In my practice, even right now, I transitioned to real estate. I wouldn't get to this point if I wouldn't have those foundations or Or that skill set. I think when you study abroad and then you want to practice abroad, this experience humbles you because when you are a local attorney, you know, you are very confident because you know the law and you are pretty welcome. You are one, one of them. But when you practice in the States or in another country, you are not one of them. So you have to prove yourself 10 times more than a local attorney. And then, so. That really humbles you and makes you think that, okay, everything that I have learned, this is the time to put it in practice. You become more resourceful even, and I think that's something that it wouldn't happen if you didn't study abroad. You will get sticking to your own habits and perspectives, so I feel like as professionally, of course, it's gonna add up to your resume, but personally, It's like you became a different person because you have to adapt, right? Couldn't agree more with what both of you have said. The one thing I'm going to say is that we are lawyers at the end of the day. So there's a common foundation and it's that we're problem solvers. And that's a skill that we have to develop no matter where we go. But the harder part is probably doing it in another language, in your second language. So that combination of, yeah, you're probably starting from scratch. You're not an attorney anymore when you move. That is hard, but that gives you again that potential ability to grow even farther than you started. As far as the job itself goes, what makes it— there are definitely local differences and the one between Latin America and North America is probably simplicity. I think that in my country, we overcomplicate things a lot, so coming from that background where you Explain everything 3 times, 5 different paragraphs where you could have said it in one. And it's what it caught, it caught me a little bit off guard at the way you communicate and your audience is a lot different too. So I would talk to my boss and my boss in Colombia is a doctor, right? And in the States, first name. I was like, oh, that's weird that I get to call you by your first name. Now we're kind of equals. But all that sets you up out of your comfort zone. Just like when you travel, they say that when you travel, you get out, you learn the most, you get out of your comfort zone. And it's one of the funnest ways to do that. Same thing happens when you decide to move and actually start building a career, but it's actually more in depth. Now you have a goal. Now it has to work out and you're the one who has to adjust, not the people around you. So that, that was really interesting. But I think about that daily because again, it tells me, it reminds me that I need to adjust for my audience. It's not the same talking to my people in Colombia and talking to my people in the States. It's not the same talking to the CEO in Colombia and talking to a CEO in the States or my boss or right, whomever it is. And also it goes along the way I talk, the way I write, but also way I dress. So it is, it is different. It definitely opens your mind a lot more than if you were in your own country. My biggest adjustment, maybe as like Bibiana, I felt that I was grieving because you have to look for another avenues in the States. And then you, you find out you have to start over from law school if you want to practice law. And, or you can also go for a program where you work for a law— for a lawyer for years, and then you pass the bar and then he has to coach you. So it takes a lot of time. So I think for me was to be open, that adjustment, like I'm not an attorney here anymore, but what I can be. If I cannot be an attorney, I can work in compliance, for example, or I can be a paralegal and I can use my legal background in another fields. Which are my options? I don't think nobody understands how expensive is just to start over in another country. Not just about the tuition fees, but how you're going to support your family, how you're going to support yourself. And some states are even more expensive than others. In the beginning, I was living in Miami. For me, it was impossible going to the University of Miami. The tuition was so high. That is also something that you have to keep in mind and be ready for it. I'm just going to go because you mentioned University of Miami and that happens to be mine and we didn't know each other. The school that actually rejected me was Brigham Young University in Utah. That was the school I wanted to go to. Their program was designed for lawyers to go back to their country, and I had barely gotten married, and they found out that I was going to stay, so they didn't like that, that I was not going back. So yeah, it was a big setback because I'm like, what do I do? That was my plan. I had set everything. And they say that you should never have backup program, backup plans like Plan Bs, because if you do, then you don't work as hard on Plan A. But when you have third parties and contingencies deciding your life, that was a big mistake, and it took a lot of adjustment. And a lot of moral support. Like I said, I thought I had met all the boxes. I was a top student. I had worked for the law school, had pretty good jobs, good grades, ranked high, all that stuff. So the conditions are different and I was applying to the wrong school. But ultimately, yeah, that took me, like I said earlier, that took me to get an MBA, which also helped me. And that's why I have been, I think, a little successful in terms of working for businesses because I have a different perspective, not just the legal one. I want the business side. Well, in general, not just on the legal side. And again, if I had not done that, I probably wouldn't have had that opportunity to look at it this way. Right before, after I finished my second year in France, I was, I was very excited and I said, you know what, I've got to find a job in France. I want to stay here because my plan was to stay in Europe. And I got a call for this job interview and I was very excited and I was very happy because I was like, oh my God, I'm going to do it. And they called me to the office and the guy asked me, What is the added value that you can bring to the firm? And I used to think that the languages were something good, the experience. So I told him, oh, I'm a lawyer. I have experience. I speak Spanish, English. I can defend myself in France, blah, blah, blah. I thought it was amazing. And he said, look, if I wanted somebody who speaks Spanish, I can go ahead and bring it from Spain. If I want somebody who speaks English, I can go ahead and bring it from Ireland or bring it from the UK. You represent no added value to me. Besides, I have to do your papers. So he crushed. I left the office and I was devastated and I didn't realize what he has done. So that moment, I remember coming back home to my brothers and I decided I went to London. Then I decided to go back to Colombia. I say, I don't have anything else to do here in France. One day before traveling, my brother gave me advice and he told me that, that regardless of anything that happens, you always need to aim for the sun. Do better, aim for what is best. And who knows, perhaps you might hit a star. So then I switched the mentality. I came back to Colombia a little bit, I mean, disappointed in myself because my dad didn't want me to come back. But I, I took that and I started changing the mentality. And then 3 years later, I was working for a French company in a whole different role, doing something that I was not imagining to do. And now I became an expert in that and I love my job and I have the chance of doing it from here to people there and raising my son at the same time. So it all goes back to You never know what is going to come next. That's amazing. You know, for lawyers building a career in a new country, there are different paths. There is requalifying, but we can't also underestimate the amount of information that is available today. Requalifying, in-house roles, advisory work, having all of those options in mind, how did you approach that decision for yourself? Once you do some kind of study abroad, you also have the chance to reset your career in a way. So if you worked with litigation after studying abroad for a year, it might be, you know, an opportunity to move out of that field and then go into transactional work if you want. So I'm curious to hear, you know, how did you use that opportunity as well, doing something that maybe you didn't expect at first? I think in my case, I wish I have the personal experience and the knowledge I have today when I'm almost 39 than when I was 24 and I was excited about this international, you know, business master's degree. Because when I, what I found out, the more you're open, not just to law, like to add an education like Bibiana did, you know, Maybe I would study, get that master's degree, but maybe add an education in finances because when I was working in my practice here in the state, there is no growth for attorneys. If you want to grow, you're going to be the in-house attorney for many years. So when I, when I wanted to get out from the law firm and work for a company again, I was looking for compliance because my background, but then I said, no, I want something more like in finances. Because it's, where is the growth? You know, one day I can apply for a vice president or chief of operations or something. You gotta be open to those options and keep it in mind. So I think Bibiana's option was very smart. And that's nice of you to say, but like I said, mine was accidental. I did know that I did want to practice and my path would be in the States because it would be a lot easier for me to adjust to the US than my husband to Colombia and having a family, obviously. sleep was important for us and raising a family in the US looked better for us at the time anyway than being in Colombia. So I, so I knew the path was going to be long and it was going to be hard and I was going to go through it. One of the surprises, and I agree with you, Elizabeth, we have to be super open-minded and let's see where the path takes us. And it's that I chose University of Miami because of the Latin American connections, because after going to law school in Colombia, now I have this skill and some experience in the US. Now I can probably land a job at, I don't know, Microsoft or HBO Latin America and all these great companies that the University of Miami is connected to. And they had a great externship program. To my surprise, however, I sent my resume to Bacardi, to the Latin American division, which has a lot of connections in Puerto Rico and Bermuda. And they sent my resume to the USA division because of my compliance work that I had done. So to your point, Elizabeth. So at that moment, I realized that my value was no longer my Colombian degree. Because I thought, oh yeah, Colombian degree, bilingual, all these skills that I've learned. I know US and Latin America a little bit. No, what was valuable was what I had already done. And I would have never seen it that way. And that's how I decided, okay, nevermind. We'll just go back to compliance. And that's really, that's my strength anyway. So consumer protection law, but it was not really what I had intended. Well, Because when I came back from France, I, I didn't know what to do. So I got a job in the local government, but I always knew that I wanted to do something where I can apply what I had studied. Because, you know, I had the master's in France, the languages, and at the local government, no chance of doing that. Then I went to another institution for the government and no chance. Then when I got the call from my brother to join his team and to do these small legal things, I realized, you know what? Here it is. So I started learning. I always say that I created my job because the position was not in the company, because the thing is that the companies that participate in these projects, they don't care about the law unless they have a problem. So ironically, they are Europeans, but they think very Latin American. So, so one day I decided, so I did this study on my own about how I could add value to the company and prevent. So I told him, I'm not going to make money for you. But I'm gonna stop you from wasting money or for spending money that you don't need. So I created my job. So I created the in-house counsel for the companies. Then I started growing and realizing I was very good at what I was doing, not because of the documents that I write. And the thing is that nobody wants to write these documents. So I decided nobody wants to do it. I can do it. If I'm good at it, that's good for me. And the other thing was to be able to make people understand me. in a language that is not their own. So I always say that I make law very easy for them because I explained it very easy. So there, so far it's been doing very well. So that's one of my main strengths. So, but at the end, I agree with what everybody says, we need to adapt. Fantastic. As we, as we get closer to wrapping up today's episode, how have you navigated those situations and what strengths or perspectives did you think that being an international lawyer brings that can actually become an advantage as you maybe even mentor new generations of lawyers Start with one that hit me hard. I never knew this was real, but discrimination is real, especially coming from a Latin American country. So not everybody, obviously, but you feel it. You feel it. They feel it in your accent when you're making a phone call. So it was tough because you had— but that motivated me, right? Because you have to be good. You cannot be Hispanic and bad. Now you're double bad, right? So, and that's kind of how I saw it at the time, especially in a state like Utah, which is where I live now. I have moved around. But I'm back in Utah and Utah is very white. And so it felt a little stronger, but ultimately one thing that caught my attention was that people started to remember me when I did something for them. They would remember the lady with the accent and, and that became my edge. It was like, yeah, Viviana, the one with the accent. So, so I was memorable, but I had to make an effort to make sure that the reason they remembered me is because I was on top of things, because I was helping, because I was facilitating the processes and not actually overcomplicating things when you're here. Hispanic in a country like this, you know that one mistake counts for 10. It gives you more, more motivation to be better. So, but it was definitely something that it was hard to accept. I, for me, being already an attorney and having, you know, international experience abroad practicing law, I also worked for a very big company that manufactures cars. I think I was at the peak of my career and then getting back to law because I love law. So I was working. For attorneys as paralegal, but then I find out that in the States, most of attorneys, they don't care about your degree. Sometimes you're going to have even a higher degree than them, but it doesn't mean they're going to respect you at all. They treat you just like another legal assistant. They treat you just like another paralegal and even sometimes even worse because you are Hispanic. I was noticing that I was more knowledgeable than law clerks or of course you know, associates or another attorneys, and they couldn't give you that credit for it because they forgot you are an attorney, you know? So they never give you the credit, like, you know, this lady make this so easy. She break down this contract. She drafted all these pleadings. So it's not out of the blue. It's because I have a legal background because I went to law school just as you did. And maybe I have even another degree higher than you. I appreciate that happened. Because it makes me open. Okay, if I want to, you know, practice law, this, this, this title or this degree, where is it going to take me? And then I said to myself, oh my God, I should study something in finances. You know, the company I work already have a great example. The chief of operations, she is a woman who has a paralegal degree, but she didn't use it. She became, she decided to pursue an administrative until she got to be the chief of operations. She is the boss of the attorney. So I was like, you know what? I think I have that kind of hunger to grow and that ambition. I use that as a motivation to see where my skillset and my skillset as an attorney will take me and how can I get into the real estate. I think it's been really easy. All my skillsets were transferable. Now I work You know, very close to the legal department, to the administrative department, to the accounting, to finances. And I really, I enjoy it because at the end, law, you're going to find law in every, in every department, in everything you do. So I was not afraid to leave the, the, like the traditional field or the traditional path for an attorney. I had another issue is that, or, or the accent, because my first European company, It was for a French and they were associated with a Spanish. So I pretty much spoke English better than both of them. They were the guys with the accent. It was not me. But so people didn't value because I was the brother of the owner of the company. So I had to prove myself a lot because there was a lot of comments about, yes, because it's Jorge and he's doing it from Colombia and all these things that happened in the background. But I proved myself every time I used to go to Europe. I used to talk to them and join because it was very difficult for me to, to get to know them from this side of the world. So I moved to try to seek opportunities in other companies. Then the Colombian situation, the Colombian issue came into factor because a lot of people, every time I talk, I speak to people, they, oh, you're Colombian, you're not European. And that raises a little bit of a small flag to them. And then I have to start showing them my background and my work and everything. But I remember one person once told me that on my website, I shouldn't put anything about Colombia. I just put, you know, my European And people will confuse the Barona for Italian. I'm proud to be a Colombian. Actually, my story, I love it because I'm a Colombian that I work over there. And then when they see the +57 on the WhatsApp or +57, they always ask me. So I'm like, that doesn't matter. I, so I know it's a bit of a challenge. So I have to prove myself and tell them, you know what, I qualify. I've been through a lot of scrutiny by the European Commission when it comes to my contracts. Because in all the projects that I have participated, they have to look for the people who are paying. And every time I always go through everything. I actually registered as an expert for the European Commission, even though I'm Colombian, I'm not European. They opened this and I qualified. So I realized I put myself to that. Very interesting. It seems that there is, there's no career story, even outside of legal, that doesn't have some kind of hiccup or hurdles. It's very motivating to know that we can get through it. At some point, and it's so motivating to hear each of your stories. To wrap up today's episode, I just wanted to ask you, for young lawyers, early career professionals who might be listening to us today and who are considering an international legal path, what is maybe one mindset, one habit, or one decision that you believe can make that journey much more intentional, much more rewarding, and also much more well-informed? I have 2 big advices that I received during my life, and they're both from my brother. One's that he told me that every time you feel unmotivated, You feel depressed, you feel like this is too hard for you, just redo your CV, reorganize it, because in this way you're going to see what you have accomplished. I do that because sometimes the first person, the most critical person for you is yourself. So when you do this exercise, it's good. And the other one is the aim for the sun. My brother's advice was he used the metaphor of women. He was like, do you see the most beautiful woman in the room? Well, hey. The worst thing she can say is no. And it is true. A lot of them say no. I do that as a life mentality. And I tell my son that you need to look, always aim for the best. I look for many, many opportunities in many, many places. So you either see the glass half full or half empty. I see it half full and he makes everything worth it. That's why I have right in front of me is the name of my son. That is the background that I have here because it's the main motivation. I have all the clichés. They're there for a reason. And I'm, I'm convinced that if you put in the work and trust the process and build some relationships along the way, build— trust that one fan who believes in you. That's been huge for me. There's always someone behind those doors opening them up for me. But if I put the work in, eventually it will pay off in the right way. The other thing is that you're never done. You're never done and it's never too late. So I'm still taking classes here and there, AI, whatever it is, right? It's, uh, the world, it's getting faster and faster and international is for sure the way. I just wanted to really thank you all for taking the time to be in the podcast today. Thank you. No, thank you for the invitation. And I will say just the best investment you can do is in yourself. And one good investment is in your education. And personally, you're going to be great rewarded finding yourself a new person immersed in another country. That will be my only advice. Thank you so much. No, that was incredible. I really, really appreciate you all making the time to be here today. Thank you for having us.