Human Rights Advocacy, International Law, and Finding Your Calling with Wissam al-Saliby

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. I talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. This evening I have the opportunity to host Wissam Al-Salibi. He has an incredible background and a very interesting connection to the legal world here. If you could just briefly share with our listeners a little bit of your background in the sense of how do you, you know, correlate law and religion in your background. I am Lebanese and lived most of my life in Lebanon before I had a calling to move abroad outside of Lebanon. And the first seven years of my life were during the last seven years of the Lebanese Civil War. So when I talk about law, you know, as a personal journey, living during conflict, but also in a post-conflict society. I grew up feeling, you know, the need to be a voice for justice, a voice for peacemaking, a voice for human rights in societies like Lebanese, like in Lebanon. I grew up as a Christian early on, you know, my background is Orthodox Christian, but came to faith as an evangelical early on in my life as a teenager. When I decided to do law, it wasn't necessarily a faith decision. I just felt like as a Lebanese, you know, in Lebanon, there was so much injustice around us in our country, around us. I felt like I needed, I wanted to be a voice for justice, for peacemaking. And then in Lebanon, my four years, and then did a master's degree in international law. And that master's degree's focus was human security, meaning humanitarian law, peacekeeping, the Security Council, the United Nations, refugee law, protection of minorities, international criminal law. And it was a unique field, which is also kind of connects to the fact that I come from a region where there's a lot of armed conflict. So the laws of armed conflict. So that's what I studied in France. And again, so there was a disconnect between, I would say, between faith and the legal career until, you know, I had a strong calling to work with the churches to advocate for religious freedom, human rights, against human trafficking at the United Nations in Geneva. And that's where my two worlds came together, my faith, the calling to ministry, and the work for human rights and what I studied. And that's where God started to use me, use the skills, the knowledge that I had. That was incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that. And that explains a lot about what drew you to work at this intersection of faith and law, but also how faith has influenced your approach to your career. Can you tell us a little more about, you know, this specific point of your role and how that basically had this very important intersection of faith, international humanitarian law, human rights works? On the contrary, these are roles that are always open. As Christians, we need to step into areas to defend life, human rights, life in armed conflict. We need more Christians in these areas because this is our calling. You know, when we talk about the utmost value that God told us, the utmost value is life. And human rights protects life, prohibits the taking away of life unjustly. The laws of our conflict protect life because they protect civilians, they protect noncombatants, they protect combatants who have been injured and they are outside of combat. In many contexts, the pro-life movement is equated with anti-abortion, and that is not an accurate depiction of the scope of work that we are called to, especially when there's so much armed conflict all over the world, there's so much violence, there's so much violation of human rights. We need more Christians, more churches, more associations, evangelical, Baptist, Pentecostal to step into the area of defending life through defending human rights and the laws of armed conflict. Now, my personal journey, unfortunately, there's a lot of armed conflict, there's no shortage in the Middle East for my line of work. Back then when I was in Lebanon, I was working at dissemination and promotion of protection in armed conflict. And I was working with local Lebanese nonprofits, and I was working with a Swiss organization as a senior trainer on the laws of armed conflict across the Middle East. It's amazing work, because it was much needed, and it was much valuable, and remains very important until today, this day, because every day there are violations of these important laws. The laws of armed conflict predate human rights law. The protection of civilians in armed conflict, the protections also of the wounded combatants who need support, predate human rights law. The foundation for it was in the late 1800s, when the head of the Evangelical Association in Geneva, Switzerland, Henri Dunant, he was the head of the Evangelical Alliance then. They convened in a church, where I happened to fellowship back when I was in Geneva. They convened a church and decided to send the first humanitarian mission to tend to the war wounded in a conflict that was happening at the time, where soldiers were fighting and no one was taking care of those who were injured and were left to die. So the genesis of the movement, what we call today the International Committee of the Red Cross, was in the church. That's amazing. It was a Christian evangelical ethic that birthed the modern day Red Cross Committee and the foundations for the laws that apply to armed conflict. And that is so important that is lost today, and we need more of that. And so that was what I was working on in the Middle East until I moved to work at the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary in the management and operation of the seminary. That was my first step into ministry. And after that, we had a calling, me and my family basically, to move to Geneva. And in Geneva, the work became primarily issues of freedom of religion or belief, because working with the churches, with the World Evangelical Alliance, with the churches globally, that was a primary issue. And then secondary issues included ethical issues, human trafficking issues, and other life and key issues that were very important to the global church, the evangelical church all over the world. And that was the work I did in Geneva. And two years ago, we had a calling again, we prayed about it, and we were called to come to the United States with my family to lead 21 Wilberforce. Today I am the president of 21 Wilberforce. 21 Wilberforce advocates for human rights and for religious freedom for everyone. And we work with the churches all over the world to support them, equip the churches to be advocates within their context to freedom of religion or belief for everyone, and for human rights for everyone, and also for peacemaking in times of conflict. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you explaining this very interesting career path for us. And I'd love to dive a little deeper when you mentioned about, you know, religious freedom. I must say most of my listeners here are based both in Canada and Brazil. And I think that these are countries that even though they do have issues regarding religious freedom, sometimes we can be a little bit oblivious to what's going on around the world. So how do you see freedom of religion evolving globally? And especially when you look at this point that you specifically mentioned on conflict zones. Most of the world's population live in countries where people do not enjoy the full extent of the right to freedom of religion or belief. I never knew that. As a Lebanese growing up in Lebanon, we had religious freedom, you know, we had wars, we had problems. But because we were a country of minorities, there was an agreement that, you know, religious freedom is for everyone. And that was very unique. Now I'm in the US, we also enjoy this religious freedom here. But that's not the case for most of the world's population. And most of the Christians in the world live under circumstances where they face either discrimination or harassment or persecution. And so that is the reality of the world. Now it varies from country to country. You know, some places it's Islamic terrorism, other places it's like in India, it's the majority Hindu groups that are threatening both Muslims and Christians. In other areas, it's secular atheist governments that are oppressive and that look at the churches as, you know, a threat. And, you know, and then in other governments, also, you know, the rise of religious nationalism, whatever religion it is, the rise of religious nationalism oftentimes comes at the expense of the rights of other religious minorities and communities. And then in other countries, the tribe, the clan, you know, perceive the religious conversion as a threat, as leaving the clan. So whichever the tribe or clan is, whether it's religious based or other forms, ethnic. So these are, this is all over the world and it takes many shapes and forms, Claudio. But in my work, what is important for me is first to know that the church in many places in the world is growing, is flourishing. There's a lot of people who are coming to know Jesus. And that is the starting point. That is why there's a lot of persecution, because things are moving. And second, churches that face persecution, face challenges, harassment, discrimination, you know, a large scope of threats. Many of them are pushing back or are trying to see how they could push back against this persecution. When I was in Geneva, I used to listen to them. I used to take their reporting, bring their voice into the United Nations human rights system. Today, I try to train, equip, partner with them in their own country, wherever they are, to come alongside them, support them in how they would like to expand this space for religious freedom and to protect the fruit of the evangelism and the gospel witness. Fantastic. I appreciate you sharing that. What lessons from your work do you think you could, that could help lawyers to engage in advocacy, to engage in their, in their passionate work? There's a great need, I mentioned this at CERIGEN, for Christian lawyers advocating for human rights protection of the most vulnerable, whether it's in secular organizations or within faith-based organizations. We need more Christian lawyers. We need the ethics that comes with our Christian faith to be understood fully, to understand how human rights and humanitarian law, and broadly speaking, the global charter for human rights, all the various documents and United Nations documents, how they are relevant to protection of life, dignity of everyone, and we need to step into this. It's needed within every country in every context. So I wish lawyers more delved into the issues they, and maybe a lawyer is trying to identify what God is calling them in this. And they could take a course, a brief course online, a course in person. In many organizations, there is a lot of courses on human rights. You know, after my master's degree, I had the unique opportunity to take a course on refugee protection in the forced migration center in Oxford, for example. It was very important. There are courses on humanitarian law. There are courses on human rights, like two, three, four-week courses, whether online or in person, and this can help lawyers identify if they would like to move from a corporate sector to, you know, to the protection. Now, it doesn't mean that being lawyers and being judges doesn't also, isn't also a calling that is important in life. In this area, the scope of intervention possible as Christian lawyers, advocates is large. And I hope, and I wish more lawyers can step into these fields and fill in these gaps, you know, opportunities to learn more, to grow more in some areas, to understand more some areas where maybe it's a future calling. Amazing. That's fantastic. So, so I'm curious about your thoughts, you know, on, on how do you balance, you know, personal faith, professional ethics? How do you show up to work as your host self? Well, I currently work in a setting that is a Christian setting, Christian, you know, organization where we pray. Prayer is essential. It's part and parcel of the work we're doing. We're doing the work we're praying for, for God to, you know, give fruit to the labor. We pray for God first, that we shepherd the resources that he provides in the most, in the best way. So in that sense, you know, I'm blessed to be in this, in this area. When you're in ministry, it's easier. When I was in secular human rights work, you know, at some point I let my employers know that I'm a very committed Christian. And sometimes it came as a surprise because they thought I was, you know, you know, politically engaged in some areas, not as a Christian, you know, because there's misunderstanding of the Christian faith in secular areas, which is very unfortunate, but there's a bias, misunderstanding in some circles against the Christian faith, and some, not all, but you know, so I, I, at some point I'm very clear on who I am, what drives me in the secular area to say that I'm doing this as a Christian because of my faith, because of my witness, you know, so that's, that's how it was before. But then now I'm more blessed because I, I operate in a context of ministry, but prayer is natural. Amazing. Well, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. As we get closer to the end of our episode here, if you would be able to discuss a project or case that has had a profound impact on your perspective of law and justice. I've worked on a host of issues in Lebanon. I've worked in 2006 on Israel's bombing of Lebanon and over a thousand people killed back then. Sadly, this is a ongoing theme of tragedy in the news, the ongoing bombing and violence between Hezbollah and Lebanon, but also Israeli attacks on civilians and on health workers on aid workers today, three, you know, health workers were killed while going to help people who were injured. It's tragic to be thinking like, was there a military objective or not? Why did these people die? You're investigating war crimes. And then after that, you know, in Lebanon, I've worked on refugee protection and I got to meet people who are undocumented. I got to meet people who are refugees and then advocating for their rights. It's hard because you come in and people have so many needs and you're coming in just asking questions and you feel like you need to do more. And then after that, I worked, you know, unfortunately with the conflict in Syria, I was involved in dissemination and protection and demobilization of child soldiers. At one point I was part of a visit to a camp of demobilized children in one of the areas of the conflict. And I still remember 14 and 15 year olds were so upset with us because they were just demobilized and they did not want to demobilize the children because they wanted to carry the guns. And we didn't meet the 16 or 17 year olds because they were even more upset with us and they didn't want us. I was in Nigeria with my current work. And when I meet with church leaders with Nigeria every single time, someone would tell you I was abducted and held for ransom. And then there's always someone, the pastor's leader, someone I'm meeting with them and there's like extreme cases of violence that they witnessed. And you're trying to say to them, how can we help you recognizing that it's such a difficult, difficult issue in areas that I can never go to because it's, you know, it's too dangerous, but they're there. These are the people who are there. And you're trying to understand how you can support, come alongside, defend and advocate. And yeah, so this is my current work. This is a big project that we're involved in, 21 Wilberforce today, coming alongside Nigerian Christians in their advocacy. I mean, on one hand, you feel like the task is huge, is daunting. On the other hand, we pray that God brings fruit to our labor and the labor of advocacy of the local church through the seeds that he plants through us. You're always like between, you know, Oh God, how can we help and support? But then at the same time thinking, you know, violence has always existed. Conflict has always existed. Persecution has existed. The question is, what is God calling us to respond to this violence? That is the most important question. Our faithfulness with what we do is the most important answer to this in the face of tremendous challenges. And that is my prayer every day, that I would be faithful in where God calls us and in the resources that he provides and in our work with churches in Asia, in the Middle East and in Africa today. There is any kind of advice that you'd give to younger lawyers who are trying to combine their faith and legal practice, either, you know, by working specifically at a more, you know, public facing role at a role where they will actually work with law and religion or just, you know, they're having a regular legal career in corporate office or, you know, working at the court. But I want to leave their faith more meaningfully. Yes. I mean, either intern or volunteer with an organization, secular or Christian, working on human rights work, working on refugee work, working on protection of the vulnerable, or take a course, a short style, a long course on issues of human rights or read a book on these matters to see if this is where, if God plants a seed for a calling in the future to move to this area. Some of the corporate lawyers, you know, have opportunities in the United States to do pro bono work sometimes, depending on some firms. And that's really good. I journeyed and I prayed for to see where God calls me. And I was surprised in some cases, like I never wanted to leave Lebanon and then I went to Geneva and then I never wanted to come to the US and then here I am in the United States now. So, you know, God calls us to places and it's surprising. And you know, the lawyers need to listen, to hear, not to resist, you know, and then to discover. And then they can email me info at 21willbeforced.org and I can share more if they'd like to volunteer with us, if they'd like to intern with us. Fantastic. Well, I really appreciate you making the time to be in the podcast today and to share a few of your thoughts. Much much appreciated. Thank you so much, Claudio. I appreciate it. And I'm grateful for your work. Thank you. Likewise. And thank you so much for tuning in and listening to today's episode. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye.