Mastering Oral Advocacy, the Power of Public Service, and Following Your North Star with Karlson Leung

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. Today, I have the privilege here of being joined by Carlson Leung. He has an incredible story, an incredible career. He now works with the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General. but has had quite an interesting career to this point, passing through the UK House of Commons, the UNPD in Beijing, also having some time that he spent in England as well. And with very, very, very many incredible experiences. I'm so happy to have you here on the show today. Thank you for making the time, Carlson. Thank you so much, Claudio, for having me. Really appreciate it. And always happy to chat and always happy to get started and talk a little bit about Questions that may relate to our listeners today. Absolutely. Thank you so much for making the time. Just as a reminder here, any guest that you hear on this podcast, they're always speaking on their personal capacity. But I also wanted to reinforce this. Carson is here today speaking on his personal capacity, and anything that he says does not represent the views or the position of his employer, of the Ministry of the Attorney General, or the Government of Ontario. And to get started here on our questions, I'd love for you to introduce yourself to us, tell us a little bit about your background, and maybe walk us through this path that you took that's so incredible, you know, between political science, international relations, law. Yeah, thank you so much. Absolutely. So a little bit about myself, and as you touched on already, I've kind of always had a passion for public service, and I've always tried to find ways to weave in my interest in political science and international relations as an academic discipline and subject into the work that I do now as a lawyer for the government. So a little bit of background about me. I started off as probably many law students. I started back in their undergrad years as well as a political science and international relations student. And I really enjoyed what I was doing. I really liked looking at how institutions, political institutions, economic institutions, how those function, how those work in society. And for me at the time, I knew that You know, I would have to pick probably between going to grad school and pursuing it as an academic discipline or pursuing a career in law, perhaps where I can apply some of the things that I was starting to learn about in undergrad and see how I can do that as a lawyer in practice. So as, as with many things in life, I couldn't decide and I ended up doing both. So I started off doing grad school first. So I finished up my degree at the University of British Columbia, and I went off to the University of Oxford to pursue graduate studies in political science. And there I mostly— I spent 2 years looking at comparative politics. So, you know, looking at how political institutions work in different countries and doing my dissertation there on land tenure and how that interplays or interacts with the durability of authoritarian regimes. After that point, I knew that I wanted to pursue a career in law. Thankfully, the University of Toronto had allowed me to defer 2 years. And so I came back to Toronto, came back to Canada, and I took up my JD degree there at U of T. It was a really helpful and rewarding time for me because I found that a lot of the seminar classes, a lot of the upper-year research courses allowed me to pursue some of the things that sparked my interest back in undergrad and grad school and allowed me to pursue a little bit further. So during my law school career, I was able to take on really interesting clinic opportunities in international human rights, spend my summer at research institutes like the Max Planck Institute for Political and Social Science in Germany, and take on different roles and jobs, summer jobs with the United Nations. And so for me, it was, it was a perfect marriage of everything I was interested in before with law, politics, and policy. And it culminated in my third year of law school where I was able to do an exchange at the University of Geneva and do a certificate in transnational law. So, you know, for me, like that was really a great experience for me in tying all my interests together. And it led me to applying for my first law job as an articling student at with the Ontario government. So that's how I ended up with the Ministry of the Attorney General, where I still work today. Amazing. And I'd love to drill down in a few bits and pieces of your career to learn more from your experience. I saw that during law school, when you just mentioned quickly, you worked with the UN Special Rapporteur on the right to adequate housing and later at the ICTY in The Hague. And I'm curious what those experiences taught you about, you know, international law in practice? We love it as a subject, but how did that look like into actually people's lives, right? And how different was the reality from what students often imagine international legal work to be? Yeah, those are excellent, excellent questions. And for me, as someone who was entering this field and this area of practice, I also had the same questions as well. And so it was only through the course of speaking with various mentors, role models, professors and starting to work in these areas that I started to get a sense of what it was like as well. And so when I started working for, as an International Human Rights Program clinic student for the UN Special Rapporteur Leila Ali Farha at the time, it's a very interesting mix of policy research, policy advocacy, and the law. So, you know, Whereas when you're articling and you start practicing as a lawyer, advocacy may take the form of going to the courts and arguing there and litigating your case before the courts, or you may choose to deal with legal advocacy through negotiations or settlements and things like that. But in the international forums, it's it's advocacy in a different shape, but it's still advocacy nonetheless. So what I mean by that is that you may not be necessarily bringing cases to courts, although that is certainly something that the UN Special Rapporteur could seek to do if they're filing, you know, for example, amicus briefs or things like that. But the advocacy takes the form of, you know, bringing investigations and reports to international human rights bodies like the Human Rights Council or conducting advocacy in different ways, whether that's in changing public opinion or testifying in national parliaments or things like that. So all the skills that you pick up in law school and the skills you develop as a lawyer still remain very applicable. It's just that those types of advocacy skills are applied in different forums and different bodies. What I did learn about what things are a little bit different is that, you know, when I was at the International Criminal Tribunal working as a judicial intern to the president and appellate judge at the time, I found that ICTY cases move methodically and slowly, but there's a reason for that as well. And that's because you're dealing with massive files that have had a long historical trajectory. It requires a significant amount of evidence that needs to be brought to the court to establish the historical record and to explain why something has happened over the course of sometimes hundreds of years to explain sectarian differences, religious conflicts, ethnic divides. And sometimes you need expert evidence to set the scene for explaining why certain things have happened over hundreds of years to explain the culminating point for an incident. So those types of cases proceed very differently from what we see in, for example, civil or commercial litigation, where although it may seem to litigants it takes a long time, it's still relatively fast-paced and shorter in duration compared to some of the cases we see at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia or the International Criminal Court, where, you know, I had cases that stretched on for over 10, 15, sometimes 20 years. And what is different in international law is that you do really have to factor in international and political considerations. You know, not necessarily, of course, for judicial reasoning and that, but in the operation of the courts and the operation of the tribunals, you do need to rely heavily on cooperation with United Nations member states. And unlike a domestic court, you don't have your own police force, right, to enforce those laws. So you do need to require the support and cooperation from other countries to, for example, bring accused individuals to justice. To attend court or to offer to have them transferred upon conviction to serve out their time in another country's correctional institutions. Right. And so all of those things require a heavy level of cooperation and trust in order for the system to work on the international stage. And so, you know, working in these jobs, it's very fast-paced and it's definitely— there's a lot more career uncertainty at times. But it is incredibly rewarding if you, especially if you are determined to carve out your own path and to seek out those opportunities. Amazing. And I wanted to hear a little bit more about your, your 2 passages through the UK. So I understand that you've worked at the UK House of Commons and also later worked in London through the Harold G. Fox Scholarship and spent time in several barristers' chambers. first of all, you know, in the, in the UK House of Commons. And I'd love to hear, you know, about how that experience taught you about this relationship between law, policy, and government, which I believe you use a lot in your day-to-day work now. And also, what did you learn from the English advocacy tradition that maybe you brought into your practice now in Canada? Yeah, absolutely. Happy, happy to talk about that. So when I was working as an intern with a member of parliament in the UK House of Commons, I found that A lot of what we do as lawyers, and it doesn't matter if you're working as a lawyer or a policy advisor, but a lot of what we do is shaped by the needs of society. And it's through that lens that we should be steering our minds towards. And that's what we're always working towards is how Is you know what we're doing responding to the needs of society, and for me, working in the House of Commons showed me the the machinery of government and how it works. You know, the the amount of work and the background research that goes into addressing you know a problem or a question that you know a member of the public may have, and you know a lot of times the issues that come up are things that. my member of parliament was doing in response to a specific concern a constituent had, or an organization had, or a group of individuals seeking redress or reform had, right? So, you know, and that is the impetus that starts the iceberg of work. And an iceberg being that, you know, you see the tip of it above the water, but there's a colossal amount of background research and drafting and work that goes into it. And that in the end is what turns into a bill and a bill, if passed, becomes, becomes law. So for me, it was a great peek at, or it got me some insight into the making of, of laws and to see how an idea comes from maybe a specific question someone had. And that might lead and snowball into something much bigger later on and where it actually might become law at the end of the day. So it's something that I found incredibly rewarding. You know, it completely intersects, of course, intersects with law and our work as lawyers. But for me, it was a great opportunity to see how laws are drafted, debated, and ultimately voted on before it becomes law. And the second question— Yeah, sorry. The second question was about my time working as a first year. I was a first year lawyer at the time, and I was on a work exchange in the UK. So through the Harold G. Fox Scholarship, 2 Canadian litigators are able to do a work exchange in London for a year, and 2 young British barristers can do the same thing in Toronto. And the The aim or the goal of the program is to foster intercultural ties and further collaboration between these 2 jurisdictions and to allow for the cross-training and cross-fertilization of young litigators in 2 similar common law jurisdictions. And for me, I loved this year. Like, it was a fantastic crash course and boot camp in advocacy. And for me, what I found fascinating was that working in London, England, in barristers' chambers, doing a— it's what they call a non-tenancy-seeking pupillage. So you're kind of like articling again, but this time the goal is to, you know, spend time in the UK and learn the most you can from the fantastic barristers you're working with. And without the pressure of needing to know whether you need to get hired back or not. So it was a fantastic learning opportunity, and it really was what you put in is what you get out of it, because there were so many opportunities that were offered to us to learn from the best. And what I found fantastic about the English advocacy tradition was that they have such a rich tradition of oral advocacy and storytelling. So working in London, the birthplace of the common law, all those great things. It was really a great opportunity to see how a bifurcated profession works. So in Canada and the US, as many would know, in the legal profession, lawyers are both barristers and solicitors at the same time. So when you are licensed to practice, you also can give legal advice, but you can also appear and have rights of appearance in courts and tribunals. In the UK, they maintain the— a bifurcated profession where solicitors typically, unless there's been recent reforms now where certain solicitors can have rights of appearance in certain courts, but traditionally barristers are the specialists in oral advocacy that take the case, they take up the brief from the solicitors and they run with it and they go to court. And they are the surgeons who are court-facing and perform a very specialized role. So if you love advocacy and the art of advocacy, it's really the best of all worlds because you get to do all the fun parts. And you take a case, you prepare the argument, and you go to court and you get to do all of that. Whereas in Canada, we take a different approach where— and there's of course pros and cons of both approaches to regulating your legal profession, right? So in Canada, you have a— sometimes you have a longer history with your client or your client's business needs because you're also their business advisor or legal counsel throughout the year. So you're advising on things before it becomes a dispute, and that offers a very helpful and insightful glimpse into the operations of the business or the organization that you're providing legal services to, right? So Sometimes you're able to spot legal risks further in advance. Whereas in the UK, if you're a barrister, you, there were times when me, my supervising barrister and I were given a case 2 days before the hearing. So it was kind of like, you know, I would say if you love cramming final exams in law school and writing, you know, 100-page essays the night before and then memorizing everything and then going and doing the moot the next day. this is the profession for you because, you know, it's very fast-paced. You're getting cases sometimes at the 11th hour. And, you know, the barristers I was working with were fantastic. Like, they would be able to just pick it up, absorb everything like a sponge, and then show up and speak immaculately the next day in court to defend their client's position and to advance their case while undermining the opponent's case. So, you know, it's not always that last minute or with such quick, tight turnarounds. Sometimes you have, of course, there are many cases where you have far, far, far more time to prepare. But given the pace and the volume of things, you do have to be comfortable with producing a lot of written advocacy products and preparing for oral advocacy pretty much nonstop. But it is very rewarding. And, you know, One thing that I'd say I did take away from it was that it is really true. There's a cliché that litigators used to teach me that, you know, proper— the 5 Ps, right? Proper preparation prevents poor performance. But it was so true. Like, you can really see how, you know, in the English barrister tradition, people take a lot of pride in their work. And, you know, you can only do that if you've done your homework to the best of your ability. Fantastic. I appreciate you taking the time to shared those experiences. So incredible. And hopefully, you know, this is also a good opportunity for more young barristers to come and learn about the Harold G. Fox Scholarship as well. If you're an early career professional and wanted to, you know, learn more about this opportunity, please use, you know, Google resources to learn more about this opportunity. But it seems like quite an incredible— experiences that one could have early on in their careers. And I wanted you to transition a little bit more on the work you've performed after law school as well, you know. So I understand you've worked with constitutional litigation, civil litigation, and now advising with the Court Services Division. And I wanted to hear, you know, how has your understanding of the role of a government lawyer also changed as you moved from arguing individual cases to working closer to broader institutional and justice system questions? Yeah, for sure. And this ties in a bit with what we were talking about previously too. So this is a great segue. For me, I, after I came back from the Fox Scholarship, I was a government litigator first at the Constitutional Law Branch and then later the Crown Law Office Civil, which handles the civil litigation For the government of Ontario, for me, I spent most of my career as a litigator with the Ontario government. So we would provide we certainly provide advice on legislation or policies before they're enacted or passed or implemented. But you know, after a litigant brings a challenge to those. legislation or policies or, or whatnot, then we put on our litigator hats and we go to court to defend those if instructed to do so. And for me as a litigator, you know, it was quite similar to, to what I've been doing before on the, on the Fox Scholarship and, and previous jobs where, you know, your job is to marshal the evidence and to present your client's story to the court and to zealously advocate for your position. In my current job as the Special Advisor and Counsel to the Assistant Deputy Attorney General of the Court Services Division, my job is a non-litigation role. So, you know, but I found that my litigation skills were, were, have been incredibly helpful and serve and has been serving me well in this current role because a lot of the things we think about as a litigator, you know, spotting risks, issue spotting, negotiating, finding out what are alternative arguments we could present, what are mitigation options. All those things are incredibly relevant to the day-to-day operations of whether you're a solicitor in government or whether in a policy role. All of those things that you develop as a litigator can help to inform how you approach problems and tackle puzzles that are presented to you at work. So things like, you know, identifying risk mitigation options or proposals that may minimize the legal risk. You know, all those things will come in handy in your role as a non-litigator lawyer in the government as well. And for me, you know, in how I understand my role of a government lawyer to right now where, you know, I'm working on broader institutional and administration of justice type issues, I think, you know, like, while a lot of the skills are the same, I would say that my role now is that You know, it's putting on the policy hat as well. So we're looking at a larger picture of how everything fits in. And, you know, that might mean how do we collaborate with other ministries to deliver on a government priority or objective? How do we engage stakeholders outside of government, whether that means community organizations or professional associations or businesses or other stakeholders? to get their views and see if we can incorporate those views before we, before we do what we, do what we were democratically elected to do. So, so you're definitely wearing the policy hat of the civil servant role that you're, that you're playing. And something that I learned as a litigator though, was that you, you really defend, you learn to defend a theory of how government should work or how government works. And it's not really whether about whether you agree with the government of the day's policy or not. And, you know, as a civil servant, you have a professional duty to advocate zealously and to the best of your ability for your client. And you do that regardless of whether you agree with that policy or not. Your job— and that's your job as a lawyer too, right? So, you know, whether that's in private practice or in government, your job is to be the voice for your client and to argue for your client. But you also have a duty as a civil servant to provide the best advice you can to the government of the day. And that's the government that has been democratically elected by the people of Ontario. And it's irrespective of, you know, whether the government ultimately accepts or takes your advice or not, or whether you think on a personal level, whether you agree with something or not, that, that is, that should not impact your professional duties and obligations to provide the best policy and legal advice. So, and I find that as a litigator, you can certainly defend a theory of how government should work in, for example, judicial reviews or in constitutional challenges. And, you know, the room for a government to operate without needing to go into whether you agree with a policy or not. And that's true of whichever government you're working for. And, you know, that's something that I find really interesting about the The more kind of policy-oriented lawyer roles in the government. You know, you're working very hard every day wearing both your hats, your civil servant policy hat and your lawyer hat, to see how we can serve Ontarians better. That's incredible. I'm so happy to have government lawyers in the show, to be quite frank. I always want to make sure to represent the different kinds of careers that one can have and I definitely want to make it possible for lawyers, young lawyers, law students who are looking into maybe what kinds of careers they want to dedicate their lives to. I want them to make informed decisions. And sometimes it's hard to have a really more of a clear view of what that actually looks like. And sometimes it can take a lot of time to do this kind of research, reach out to a lot of people. So I hope that the podcast can be a good tool in that sense. And I believe it has been. So I really appreciate you making the time to explain this and to go into detail. And to go forward with our questions for this evening, you've spent much of your career in public interest and the public sector work, as you well mentioned. And for young lawyers who might be interested in government work, but worried that they might be giving up on other career opportunities, what do you think that public service offers that can be difficult to find elsewhere? Yeah, absolutely. And these were, again, the same questions I had when I was a law student as well, and as a junior lawyer as well. I think, you know, for me, I, I spent some very short stints in private practice in the past, and also, you know, when I was working in mostly commercial litigation, international arbitration, when I was in London and England. But so I can— I have some reference points for, for making these comparisons. But for me, I think the main difference comes down to the ability to have a very diverse range of work in your practice when you're working in public service, especially for the government. You know, when I was a litigator for the Ontario government, one day I might pick up a file from the Ministry of Health working on a health law matter or a drug, pharmaceutical drug matter, and at the same time in the afternoon, I could be dealing with a Ministry of Environment issue or— A constitutional issue the next day that deals with the Ministry of Energy. And like, you know, the number of policy issues or the number of areas of law are really limitless when you work in the public service. Like, I found that I was dealing with hundreds of different statutes, learning new things every single day, definitely every single month. And I found it to be Both challenging, but also exhilarating, right? So, you know, it is, it does feel daunting when you start off and you're coming in fresh, learning a whole new regulatory area. And then, but, but it's, it's remarkable because 6 months later, you're now the subject matter expert in, you know, something like super specific, like, you know, like an energy pricing matter or, you know, like a super niche arcane area of constitutional law dealing with I don't know, like judicial independence or constitutional cases or something like that. Right. So, you know, that's something that a lot of junior litigators in government find fascinating because, you know, when you dive into your first, let's say, admin law judicial review case, you know, you start with learning the whole regime inside out. So, you know, you talk with the policy clients at the ministry, that, that is responsible for that program area. You learn everything about how that area is being regulated. You talk to the senior managers and senior leaders in government who are responsible for administering that area. And then you marshal all that together, you put together a compelling story, and, and then you argue it in court. And, and that's something that, that is definitely very stimulating and is not something that you might get in other organizations or firms that you're practicing with, because in the government, more often than not, you know, in your first month or first year of practice, you're being thrown into court and you're arguing cases on your own already. So it's a great opportunity to get experience under your feet, to have carriage of your own files, to be the one responsible for putting together the theory of the case, getting the evidence together, and arguing it, but also with the support and backing of a large institutional setting. So, you know, there are definitely mentors available, supervising counsel who are available, and people who you can go to to get the support you need. So you're not all alone when you first step into court. So for me, I found that to be extremely rewarding. I, in my first year of practice, I had, I had a chance to litigate before, you know, the Superior Court of Justice, the Court of Appeal, and the Supreme Court of Canada. And that for me was incredibly rewarding, right? So that's not something that every first-year lawyer might get in private practice or elsewhere. So that's something I would say you can definitely get in the government compared to other places. And at the end of the day, you get more time to think about big cases and big issues. So what I mean by that is, you know, in a lot of other settings, the amount of time you can spend on a file might be dictated by financial reasons, right? A client or an organization may not want their lawyers to spend as much time on an issue if that means driving up costs for the party. Now, of course, in government, those are also considerations, but I find that you can definitely spend more time to think about big cases and to develop your argument without needing to worry sometimes about, you know, you know, billable limits or things like that, especially if it's on a key government priority where we need to argue to the best of our ability. And of course, those are all considerations still, but I think in terms of practice on a day-to-day basis, that's something that's a little bit different because we don't bill private clients in the same way that a law firm does, right? Now, of course, like proportionality and being economical with with money is always, always important and a key consideration because we need to be responsible fiscal stewards. But we do find that, you know, the volume of cases, while sometimes it is quite a lot as well, of course, we carry a pretty busy caseload, you do have more time to think about cases in a lot of areas. And the last thing I'll say is that there are definitely real impacts on real people, right? So when you're litigating for the government or you're working in the government, you're oftentimes working on very high-profile cases. And more often than not, I can track the progress of a case just by opening and reading the front page of a newspaper or check what the breaking news are. And that's something that really ties it all together and reminds you what you're doing matters to people. And that is a helpful and humbling reminder of the importance of our work and the importance for us to, to execute that work responsibly. That's, that's incredible. It talks a lot about the sense of purpose and what you want to achieve with your career and what kind of environment you want to be in. So I appreciate you giving that, that, that continuous look on what serving the government can look like. And beyond all of these incredible things you've done with your career so far, you've also been involved in mentoring, in professional organizations. the Asian Canadian legal community. You did mention mentors a few times during this episode as well, so I wanted to ask you a little bit more on that. You know, how important have been, you know, have mentors, professional communities, and identity been in shaping your career and your sense of responsibility to the next generation of lawyers as well? Yeah, and I'm so glad you touched on this point. It's something that Personally, I'm very passionate about as well. And, you know, you mentioned that, you know, things like the Federation of Asian Canadian Lawyers or other community organizations that I've been part of, like the Advocates Society, all of these organizations serve a crucial function in the legal profession and beyond that, because the work of the legal profession, the work of these public organizations reflect the people they serve, right? And, you know, and the reason why we need the legal profession and public organizations like the government or other major organizations, you know, the reason why they need to be mindful of, you know, equity or diversity issues is because, you know, where there are gaps and blind spots in these things, you know, they can play out every day in the work that they carry out, right? So, and that can have real impacts on people that they serve. So, you know, if we're in a service delivery profession like the legal profession where we are serving the client, but we're also serving society and community and the larger aims of the administration of justice writ large, we need to take into account these issues through the lens of having an inclusive lens and factoring in these issues so that we're making sure that we're delivering services that are truly reflective of the needs of everyone in our community. So for me, I found that these organizations served a critical role in assisting me as a junior lawyer too when I first started off. I, after I finished law school, I didn't really know a lot of people working in government. I didn't really know a lot of litigators personally as well. And so for me, going to events, you know, that were catered to young litigators, like through the Advocacy Society or through professional communities and associations like the Federation of Asian Canadian Lawyers, I was able to get a better sense of what careers could look like, you know, and see how different types of people can thrive in those careers too. Like, I've, you know, there's no one cookie-cutter model of what a lawyer should look like or what a lawyer should— how a lawyer should act or how a lawyer should speak. And I found that there were a variety of role models who were able to kind of, you know, bring their own authentic selves to work and still succeed nonetheless and thrive professionally. And that's something that I found reassuring because that means there's a space in the profession for me too. And for me, that's kind of why after a couple of years into practice, I really wanted to stay engaged in that work because, you know, I found that Especially coming off the pandemic and the lockdowns, it's hard to build up collegiality in the profession, right? And so I wanted to find a way to give back as well, to serve as a mentor through these organizations, to take on leadership roles in these organizations, to see if I can bolster that sense of collegiality and show how the next generation of lawyers can have— can find their space in the profession. And for me, that's again something I really enjoyed during my time in London because they had things like a communal dining hall, right? It seems very simple to be just eating together, but that went a long way in building up collegiality and just being able to talk about— you can talk about your favourite areas and passions of the law, of course, but also you get to learn about each other, right? Like, I remember going to meals where I saw someone who was an opposing counsel on a file, and we ended up bonding over the books we were reading or hikes we were going on. And, you know, that's really what it's all about at the end of the day. You should be able to litigate fiercely in court, but then you can go grab a coffee or a beer after as collegial members of the profession too, right? So That's that for me. That's really what it's all about. And I think, you know, we should build up that community of professionals through these organizations to seek out these mentorship opportunities when we can. Absolutely. To close out today's episode, Carlson, I wanted to ask you, what kind of advice would you give to law students or young lawyers who are interested in public law, in international work or government work, but are just maybe unsure? how to turn those interests into an actual career. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think what I would leave for listeners is that, or for those who are considering pursuing a career in public law or in government, is that you got to follow that North Star, right? Like for me, I always wanted to end up doing government work and it's not easy. It's a little bit of a a windy path sometimes. You know, it might mean taking on short-term contracts or jumping from job to job until you find your dream job, or taking up different volunteer opportunities sometimes, or taking on jobs that might not necessarily be what you want to end up with long-term, but, you know, they're, they're still related to the public interest work you're doing that you want to do ultimately, and it still helps you develop the skills you need. You know, I would say that all those things are helpful to do, and it might seem frustrating sometimes if you're jumping from short-term contract to short-term contract or doing jobs that aren't even in the government or things like that, but you got to follow that North Star. And what I mean by that is like you got to have in mind where you want to be ultimately and take those incremental paths or incremental steps to get to that North Star eventually so that you can end up where you want to be. And, you know, all of that is not wasted time or anything too, because all of those things you're doing in the interim is building up the— it's building up your professional network, it's building up your connections, it's building up your skills, it's building up your knowledge base too, and helping you develop the expertise you need to succeed. So that's one thing that I would tell a lot of people who are interested in government is that you know, they would often say, hey, Carlson, like, it seems so risky and uncertain because, you know, there's not a lot of jobs out there in international law, or there's not a lot of jobs in the government right now. There's only a couple of short-term contracts or things like that, you know. And I would say, like, if you're able to, is to kind of persevere and to follow that North Star that you want and to continue building up towards that goal, because it might seem a little bit more uncertain and Sometimes it might seem that the risk-averse path is to take on a secure job in the firm and to stay there, but I would say try out different things. You can't really go wrong. Take up that interesting public interest volunteer work, even if it's short-term. Work for that non-governmental organization, even if they only have funding for a year for your position. And then, because none of that is wasted and all of that is helpful for developing a longer-term goal. longer-term objective of working in, in government or, or in, or in international work. Amazing. Well, once again, thank you so much for making the time to come on the show, and thank you all for tuning in and listening to today's episode. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Claudio. Thanks for having me again.