Law School and Work in the Netherlands with Gabriel Lins

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law around the world. Today have the opportunity to welcoming Gabrielle Lines. He has recently completed a Masters in Company and Commercial Law at the Erasmus University Rotterdam. And we'll be talking about working in the legal field in the Netherlands. We'll talk about his special team law and we'll talk about his career. Thank you so much for joining us today, Gabriel. At the Pleasure is mine, Claudio. Thank you for having me. It's honestly a pleasure to be speaking with your listeners today. Hopefully it's going to be a fruitful conversation. Absolutely. Thank you so much. And to start our conversation today, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your journey and maybe even what motivated you to do an LLM and continue pursuing your career in Europe. Yeah, that's actually a good question to also set up the conversation. Well, I reached a point in my career, early career in Brazil that I realized that I was already working with clients on international transactions in English. And I always had also this, yeah, this feeling that I wanted to do something internationally. So it was a very well thought decision to pursue my education, my master's degree abroad. I've selected several countries to be fair, and the Netherlands was one of the top ones in my case. And I think this goes also to Brazilian lawyers in general. Brazilian lawyers, when they want to pursue education abroad, they either go to the US for an LLM and this is usually big law firm lawyers, or they go to Europe and specifically to Portugal. In my case, I didn't have the a law firm backing me up for example, to do LLM in the US, for example, where the fees are actually quite high. And yeah, and I wanted also to have a more international environment and studying in English. So I've researched several countries, I've applied to many universities and programs, and I was very fortunate to be selected to a scholarship here in the Netherlands and studying the Erasmus University of Rotterdam. So I'm very, very happy for that. That's that. That was the beginning of my masters pursuit, but in a way I went before coming here. I had no idea that actually I could pursue a career here, so I came here to further my knowledge and commercial company law. But I've also realized that there were many opportunities for educated lawyers. There are many international companies that are based here, businesses that are made having the Netherlands as a key jurisdiction. And the working language in most of these cases is English. So yeah, I also became interested in also experimenting also the legal career here. And yeah, maybe that's a good introduction. Amazing. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And then considering that you've worked through these different legal systems, I'd love to know a little more about if your background, if you're Brazilian civil law background shaped in any way the way you approached your current kind of study. And also, did you study the area you're working with or how did that come about? Yes, that's actually an excellent question. And I must say never thought really truly about that. I think, well, I think everything, or at least the foundation of my legal knowledge today I owe to the Brazilian legal background, the marble Brazilian legal background, specifically what I had with the Bing, Yeah, read it from the Federal University of of Bamboo. So yeah, I owe most of my foundation to to this institution. Not sure to what extent the Brazilian legal content context kind of shaped what I'm doing right now or how I approach things right now. I would say first Dutch law and Brazilian law, they do share commonalities. They're both common civil law systems, so it's great. Sometimes a professor during my masters would point out a fact of of in Dutch law and it happened to be the same in Brazilian law. So quite it's no coincidence, right? Both are civil law systems and, but from legal practice and to be more, maybe a bit more practical, I think in, in Brazil, we are taught to be very proactive when we are reaching clients and when we are reaching, for example, local, local works and liaising with the, for example, the quartz. And also I think servicing the client in a way that, yeah, in a more approachable way, let's put it that way. So I think those are two good lessons that I took from my practice and I still apply today. But in a broader sense, I was shaped by the Brazilian legal context. So I cannot really detach myself and my practice from it. Amazing. And specifically talking about your LLM, from what I saw you, it was a research LLM. You'd have to write a thesis and you wrote specifically on the corporate governance. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. What made you choose that topic? What are some key insights that stayed with you from that research as well? Yeah, thank you for the question clause. Very interesting. This was a topic that came up to me while I was researching for a research topic. The first reason was that that was my favorite object in my masters, corporate governance. I had fantastic professors, and it was actually pretty clear to me that I wanted to do something in this field. So I started researching and I wanted to do something also connected to Brazilian law. And I've realized that the Brazil's corporate law, corporation law was relatively recently amended to include the possibility of companies adopting dual class shares. And this was the change pursued in 2021. And yeah, I wanted to understand a bit more what motivated that. And I came across a situation in which many jurisdictions actually were in a rush, were in a run to actually flexibility their own legal systems to allow for companies to have this mechanism implemented. And what was also interested to me that this, um, this movement was also very much guided by tech companies that wanted to adopt this sort of mechanism to ensure that their founders, for example, they keep the control of the company while raising capital on the public markets. So for example, Amazon, Facebook, Snapchat, but also our Brazilian champions, new bank, Paxi Guru, they all establish some sort of dual class share mechanisms. And because I was very interested and and I was also already working in Brazil with tech companies, I thought that was the perfect, the perfect match to unite Brazilian legal context, corporate governance, international discussions and tech. So maybe that was it for my motivation. And more broadly, I think I had interesting, very interesting findings specifically about my research topic. I think one key take away would be that and more general that corporations they are made of or they are at crossroads when they try to encompass different interests, the interests of shareholders, of the board, members of stakeholders such as workers, environmentalists, state right. So government and and usually the board members are the ones to to consider all these interests that sometimes collide and take decisions. So I think that was one of the insights that I had that corporations are actually very complex creature and the decision matrix of board members are very complex as well. So I think it's a broader conclusion rather than 1 specifically attached to dual class shares, but something that I found it really interesting during my research as well. That's amazing. It also sounds like the context in which the economy is living and big companies and all of that also drives some of these legal reforms. So that's also pretty interesting to take a look at. And if I were to ask you about your time at the university, what are some of the things that you found the most challenging, most rewarding? Was it like very different than any other previous academic experience you had? Did you find a lot of commonalities? What are some of your thoughts on that? Well, it was pretty different, I must say. There were some challenges, but I I would say much more rewards in this sense. The master program in itself was kind of challenge challenging, also fast-paced in this sense. I would say one big cultural shock is was how exams took place in Brazil are usually. Yeah, I just took my exams in my own lecture room without. Yeah, only with my professor in it and my colleagues. And here in the Netherlands, there's a whole system of, for example, fraud detection, but also you're put in a big room with many students, not only your colleagues, but it could be like different, even different courses. You're given a computer and you have to type your responses. Your answer is in these computers given by the university. It really looks like for us Brazilians, looks like a vegetable national exam to enter the university. It's a more critical, I would say, and yeah, a process. So to me it was a shock and it can be stressing if you're not used to that. But definitely in terms of rewards, I would say interacting across cultures and having classmates that are from all over the world. I think we had in our classroom colleagues from every continent, and so people from the US, people from Latin American General, Africa, Asia, Oceania, many, many places in Europe as well. So it's very interesting to interact also with these colleagues and understand their legal system also. I mean, very, very fruitful as well. And the human connection as well. I, I, I made many good, good friends in so many different parts of the world. Now I have, I've promised so many friends to visit them in distant places on earth. So, and I have to keep my promise, you know, so I will be most likely traveling a lot in the upcoming years. So I would say this is, this was the most rewarding part. Of course, I mean, the, the program in itself was amazing and we had many different activities. It was very well organized. So I was very, very happy with my choosing the program that I pursued. That's amazing. And now that you're working in Amsterdam, how would you describe a little bit of, of the legal scenario, the legal work culture maybe compared to, you know, your experience in Brazil, but but also, you know, the other things that you've, you know, heard about all other countries Navigate that. And especially with this richness of, of contacts that you received with having friends and colleagues from all over the world in your program. Well, Amsterdam is really a like a very bursting city, right? It's, it's very interesting and full of activities. I would say the Netherlands in general is, it's a country that is very well known for its corporation and trade even in history, right? So Dutch traders were once very, very famous to because they control the global trade routes. The first Stock Exchange and public corporation was actually founded in the Netherlands. So it is, you can clearly see that it is a country that is built on trading commercial transactions and business. So I think this is maybe this is one part of the legal culture that is very relevant here. It's more more business driven and more it is driven by efficiency as well in this sense that you want to keep all the, I don't know, all the disputes and personal things that you have maybe against someone aside and just deal with the business part of transactions. So to say that, compare it to Brazil, this is something that stood out to me, but also other things. For example, I think here we rely more on trust than than in Brazil. If someone says they will undertake this task, just rest assured that they will give you an answer and that they will, you know, have their, yeah, their tasks completed on that time. So this is this is something that stood out to me as well. Yeah. Basically, if you, for example, send a correspondence and, and, and yeah, I think in Brazil, we usually try to certify that everything will be in the correct place. So you have, for example, to liaise with the courts workers, you have to liaise with the trade register. You have to, even when I was a legal intern, I did it a lot, going to courts and go into the trade register just to say like, please, please can you take a look at this? We filed this, I don't know, like 3 weeks ago and nothing happened so far. So can you please do your job? So sometimes this was kind of frustrating. And here I feel like everyone has its time. Everyone understands that some stuff take time and institutions usually work a bit better outside this. A small note also on work life balance. People here in opposition to Brazil, I think they value a bit more this work life balance and, and they try to enforce it towards colleagues, for example, Whereas in Brazil, if you leave, I don't know, the office before 6:00 PM, maybe you are, you're lazy or you are not putting the correct amount of effort. But not all is bad from Brazil. Not, don't, don't, don't understand this way. I think for example, when it comes to trade register, we have in Brazil everything almost fully digital. It's pretty more modern. And here, for example, we still exchange letters with the trade register, physical letters. And so not everything is on the bad side for Brazil. Absolutely. I'm glad you touched on work life balance because I was very curious about that. And if I may ask, I don't know if you've experienced this just yet, but do lawyers usually have like a vacation scheme because they know most of the world doesn't have a like, you know, we have our courts closing at the end of the year in Brazil. And with that, usually, you know, we, we get that vacation at the end of the year. How how does that look like in in the Netherlands most generally speaking? Well, also it varies depending on where you work or which line of the legal sector you're working on. If you work on companies, you most certainly have some guaranteed holidays paid and also other sorts of special leaves that you can take as well. So it varies. Usually it's not nothing below 20 days a year and you don't do not count weekends for example in this map. So if you want to take a full week is going to be only 5 days and the and the weekends are already Yeah, it does not count. This is different than in Brazil, for example. Of course, if you work in a law firm, this is usually a bit more difficult because of the how in general and and throughout the word this law firm relationship associate relationship, how they work. But usually people do have holidays, paid holidays, and they do have some good perks to be honest on working in the Netherlands and in the legal field specific. As well. Fantastic. If I may ask you now about looking back at your transition, you know, practicing and studying in Brazil and, and thinking back to your time as a student a couple years back, what would you wish that more students knew about global legal careers? I'm, I'm thinking here that while you did like a very well thought out decision, maybe that didn't start on your first day of class in law school, right? That you developed that a lot more. So what maybe you wish people would know, or what would you want students to be inspired to learn about? Well, I would wish that they knew that global legal careers actually exist. They do exist and sometimes it's difficult to, to understand this. Even even for me, I, I, I was already on the path of coming here. I came here for masters and even here I was not that much aware that I could pursue a career here. So the lack of information that we currently have, I think this is something that we need to change. And I think, for example, your podcast does a great job in sending this message to the to the world and, and to, for example, Brazilian students to yeah, actually understand that legal careers exist. I always thought I grew up thinking that if I chose law as a career, I would be bound to the country that I graduated in. And although I must say this is true. And the majority of the legal practitioners, you don't need to be the, you can be the exception. So you can actually pursue global or careers. There is demand for lawyers educated in in foreign legal systems across the globe, and you can benefit from it just for a. Quick side note here, I don't know if I've ever said this in the podcast before, but I got the chance to start law school and then I took an opportunity to spend some time in the States and then came back to Brazil to law school. And right after that experience, I was super excited about doing something international. So I went to the demo of law in my university and, and I was talking to her and now and she had a masters from abroad as well. So I thought, you know, there's no better person to to chat. And actually, she told me something along the lines of, Hey, if you want to do something international, go do engineering, go do something else like law. It's not a good like international career for you to study. And, and honestly that, you know, put me down for a little bit. I was so fortunate that, you know, during the pandemic, so many people were online and I got you here, so many people that got, you know, successful legal careers abroad. And definitely that was, you know, a big incentive. And, and kind of like, because of that, I also end up doing international relations as an undergrad because I was a little bit afraid that I wouldn't be able to do anything international. But I'm glad I, I, I, you know, just continued on with law and it's definitely being an amazing experience. And I'm glad that you know, I'm hearing out there people with successful experiences each time more so thank you so much for for sharing yours. No, thank you. And, and it's actually a great example. And yeah, how sometimes we don't know about this, right? Yeah, I think you, you do an amazing job. And I think you took this example and and now you, I think you actually created a very interesting way of sharing this knowledge too with everyone. So Congrats to you as well. Thank you so much. Yeah, I want to make sure that nobody else leaves the Deans office thinking that they, if they choose law, they can never leave the country. Yeah, amazing. Well, as we come to the end of our conversation today, what do you think about your values and careers, career goals? And how do you stay intentional about the work you choose and the impact you want to have? And, and let me tell you just a little back to the this question. A few of the previous podcast episodes, I've spoken with people who talked, who told me about their career goals, who told me about some hard questions that they thought through through their careers. And I'm just so excited to know that, you know, a lot of people have thought about those and, and I just never realized. So I'd, I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, your thoughts on that. That's, that's a good question, Claudio. And to be honest, I think yeah, it's a difficult one. I I would say having a cup of coffee. It's is my preferred way of staying intentional and not sure if that's the most polished advice. I I really appreciate when, yeah, when it comes to career decisions and personal decisions, I think you have to spare some time and reflect on what you want to achieve both professionally and personally, and you cannot detach one from the other. Sometimes people try to do so. I think if you have a cup of coffee with yourself and actually reflect on this or Paffen where you want to move forward, I think this is at least this is the the way that works for me. Or for example, listening to other peoples experience. This is also very helpful when again, your podcast comes very in hand for that. Maybe a good advice to people is listening to your podcast with a cup of coffee and while you're listening Claudio talk and also his amazing guests, think about your own personal and professional pursuits. I think that's a good advice. But seriously, I think intentional, it's more a matter of actually periodically rethinking where are you are going? Where do you want to be? And yeah, just not be comfortable with all the time. You know, we live in a in a society that demands a lot from us, for sure. But at the same time, I think the we only have one life and if you we want to accomplish some stuff, if we want to do something, some stuff with our lives, both professionally and personally, yeah, why not stay intentional? You're amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that and thank you for taking the time to sharing your experience here in the podcast. I'm sure it will inspire many other people. So thank you guys who listen to this podcast today. Appreciate your time and we'll see you on the next episode.