Legal Careers, Resilience, and Reinvention with Mercedes Garcia

Hello everybody, Welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. Today I have the opportunity to be chatting with Mercedes Garcia will be speaking about her career in Argentina, her career in Canada and just lots of different insights that we're so excited to bring to you today. I got the chance to meet Mercedes a couple of weeks back at a mining conference at the PDC, which is a very, very interesting event that happens here in Canada. And we connected then and since then I have been chatting a little bit, got started thinking about doing a podcast episode together. So thank you so much for joining us today, Mercedes. Well, hello everybody. Thank you for having me. Claudio. It's a big pleasure to be part of your podcast because as you mentioned, it was a complete surprise to me meeting you at at PDC in the context we met because both of us were volunteering. And as part of that meeting someone that has the same career path and that we have so many things in common because Claudio is Brazilian, I am Argentinian and the like, we are all Latin American feelings here doing more or less the same. I, I felt in, in, in in a comfortable position from the very first time. And then when I knew that she had this, this podcast, I have been listening to it actively. And don't get me wrong, I love it. And I take notes of every single guest you have. So I hope that I can bring some ideas to to your listeners. Thank you so much. It's really great to have you here today. And to start our conversation today, I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, your early steps of your legal career. What draw draw you to law? Did you always wanted to be a lawyer? How did that happen to you? Well, I was born and raised in a little farm town. My parents are farmers and I, I'm going to spoil it. I, I was the first university graduate from both sides of my families. I was the, the first one that wanted to have a, a university degree, but I started translation. I wanted to be a legal translator, but I went to study to Buenos Itis. I was 17 years old. There was not so much Internet around, so you could only see the programs. And at some point I started the initial courses and I, and people would ask me what, what are you going to do as a translator? And it was like, well, I'm going to translate documents and they were like, you're going to be replaced like by computers. And then I started doing my own search. I started going to the law school and I realized that the translation apartment was so small, so small in such a big building to have an idea, the law school has 24,000 students at the time and the translator career has less than 1000 of all those students. So you can like you are kind of a pariah at the law school and like you are given the last courses and everything. And it said I think that I won't be liking doing these things this way and this is the right time for me to change. So I changed and I know I never told anyone until I had made the decision. I, I did the change into law school and with me, I, I had like that interest because I liked international commerce, international trade, I liked economy and other things and politics as well. So I found my well away at law school that it's like, it's not that I wanted to be a lawyer all the time. I think that it has been a transition and, and, and a path that has been a continuous discovery of subjects of people of different frameworks. And well, it has put me in different situations to analyze life and any human interaction. That's what what attracts me about love that gives you a framework to analyze anything that is in this planet, at least still, I still haven't done anything about spatial. But, and then, well, as I mentioned in the beginning, I wanted to be a business lawyer and I, I wanted to be the person that would help my friends to have their businesses. And when I was going to get my degree, I, I realized that I didn't know really much what to do being 22 years old with, with a law degree. So I called my parents again, farmers and I said, I don't know what to do. I think that I should pursue tax because I think that, that I'm really interested in what's going on in that world. And my parents said, OK, what's, what do you need? As like I need 6 extra months at school. And I said, OK, you can take it. Now is the time. So I, I finish with them a major in tax law and then I can say that their, I discovered my, my passion. And so I finished law school, I started working at the province of Buenos Aires in the pre training zone for a while. Then one of my mentors knew that I was interested in tax and she recommended me to start working at the National Tax Court as, as a pro bono student because there were no positions for me. So I went there and I, I worked for a year trying to learn about the tax institutes and writing sentences. After my second week there and having written my first sentence, the judge said, I think that you are a really good feedback. I can't pay you. So he recommended me to go to a law firm. And at that law firm, I would do all the things that were unrelated to, to the, the part of the tribunal I was dealing with. And then at the law firm I grew up, then I went to a company to do, to do taxation of international assignments and more tax planning. Then I, I moved into a law firm as the head of the tax department. I was there for two years as the head. And then, well, you know, Argentinians reality is, is kind of particular, I thought that in the beginning that taxation would be the, one of the most important issues to deal when, when deciding businesses and deals. And by that time, Argentina had exchanged like foreign exchange controls. And I felt that my role was important, but there was much to say about the role of a lawyer in transactions. And at the same time I had lots of responsibilities and I liked the position. But I was offered a job at the Ministry of Economy and Public Finance and like, I had a substantial offer. I could go to work at a cabinet and like, I slept a couple of weeks with that idea. And then I, I moved to the Ministry of Economy and Public Finance to, to the cabinet of, of a secretary. And then I stayed at the ministry at the, at the legal and administrative Secretariat or an under secretariat. And then I went to the place where any like public lawyer was to work in Argentina, which is the Argentine legal counsel and Solicitor General Office. This is the lawyer that overseas all the, all the lawyers that defend the interests of the state in, in terms of institutional and economic matters. So I worked there since 2017 up until January 2020. And well, then there was a change of government and I, I developed many different skills working at the government because I, I turned like, I started as a tax lawyer and I ended up being a public finances and transparency lawyer. And like when the government changed, I was in like as an enemy, which had to me is like an absolute compliment because I was on the side of pavlic information transparency and I was implementing, implementing, sorry, the corruption policies. And then they said, Oh, we don't like you. So I was fired. And after that I joined a medium sized law firm that deals with capital markets and lots of energy transactions. But in the meantime, the pandemic started. I I had a a small baby because my son turned 2 years old when we were in the middle of the lockdown and I stayed at the firm for six months, but I decided to move to Canada. So long short, Long story short, that's my path into long. Wow, it's just fascinating to see how many things you can do with a law degree and also just understanding the different scenarios you've worked in, in, in the both private and public administrations. So that does give you quite an advantage to understand how these these different places really work. Right. That's so amazing. And, you know, I was going to ask you about, you know, working in public and private and how those roles, you know, were different, how they shaped the way you see legal practice. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, considering that you had such an extensive experience. And you know what, if I may ask you before we go into that, what are you working with right now? Yes, I'm, I'm, I'm currently working at a law firm, Toronto based law firm in mining, but we provide more corporate and securities advice to mining companies. And these mining companies are either junior or producing company. So it's, it's interesting because we can see all the, all the aspects from, from the exploration to the production stage. And basically we are the in-house, the in-house lawyers. So we attend to the board meetings, committee meetings. We, we do all the disclosure work, but we also are part of the transactions. So we are from the very beginning when junior company wants to explore or like when they even want to come out to the public and do an IPO or something like that. And then it's all the path that the companies go until they find mineral and that they can produce. And then there are other companies that are already producing and they have, they have different levels of, of issues and they have different legal needs. But basically this 360 approach on which are the clients needs and how to help them better to succeed at their, at their business. This is a fully remote firm and regular we, we try to, to take our clients as, as if we were part of their business. We know that we are part of their business and that's that's. Fantastic. And it's such a, such a really interesting work that you're doing right now and, and a very interesting sector especially. But I'd love to hear a few of your comments, if we could on, you know, working for public entities versus working for private entities as someone who's got quite a bit of experiencing both. I, I think that that working from in, in both sectors, I always say that I work in from both sides of the counter. So this gives you a sort of 360° view on how the law operates. And it's not theory is everything. You see how how power is structured and how, how decision making is, is how decision making works. Actually in the the public sector, they find that specifically at the Ministry of Economy and at the General Treasury attorney's office. What I learned the most, the most was how to approach the law and the importance of precedent and, and which are like, how do you move yourself within the incentives and how do you guide the incentives of the citizens and other stakeholders? Because you use, you use the law as a tool for public policy and you need to have that deep sense of institutional responsibility and you need to be thinking all the time, ultimately how one decision can ripple across all the institutions. You think more, you know, systemic policy and impact framework is like, you don't take you don't make any decision in a vacuum. All those decisions need to be seen as a whole. Might like my specialization there. Then like move towards like budget. Where is the money? Because that was like first, the first question you ask yourself when you are a public, a public lawyer is like, do you have the competence to do this? And then if you have the competence, where's the money? That where's my, my main question. Sometimes I would go to, to meetings and they were all we need to do this. And this is like, I'm, I'm here because I'm the person that's holding the budget. And I don't see that you have budget to do that. It's fantastic. But we can't allocate more resources. And by the way, I studied law and economics after tax. So like to me it was everything fascinating and well, in the private sector, you, you, you are you are more focused on the individual client needs. You are also all the time very aware of the risk that every single decision entails and you are prone to seek a strategy in a fast-paced in a fast-paced environment. There's no difference between the executive power and the private sector because many people say, Oh no, we're OK. Yeah, bureaucracy sometimes is necessary. But when you are working at like secretary or ministry level, there's no bureaucracy. They want everything for the day before yesterday. And and there's, there's not such such limitation. The only limitation you have is the budget and the budget timeline. Sometimes you are the one that is saying, hey, we need to do this before, I don't know, December the 18th because the year ends, but we need to have the budget closed. And then you won't have any money until we put, until the president actually puts the, the next budget. Emotion like you are all the time running behind, running behind the wheel is there's no difference. There's no difference between like a, a private and, and, and a public law setting. And, and well, it's like, to me, the, the, the aspect that both worlds have in common is that, that you can reach those micro and macro perspectives. And legal advice in the end of the day, is not just about the rules. It's about understanding a lot the context, the purpose, the consequences. And any client, any client from the private or the public sector, they are going to need clarity, speed and strategy. And sometimes they need someone that speaks like with the the wisdom is, is not that we are more intelligent, but sometimes you need to bring common sense to the to the room. And I think that that's, that that's the difference. I don't know, perhaps in the practice. And I'm bringing that to Canada. Well, now I work with highly regulated clients. There's no difference. There's like they, they, they have corporate Securities and Exchange rules to abide by. When you are a tax lawyer, you have also like a really complex background that goes from the constitution, like different procedures, criminal law, contractual or everything gets into together. And this is. This is also that both practices have in common is you need to make more sense about those frameworks and and navigate things that are that seem complex, but you need to understand the rules. That's amazing. That's so amazing. I really like what you said, you know, at at some raise ending some specific scenarios, there's not that much of a difference as you'd think. That's amazing and and something that I noticed that we haven't touched on, but that I know you did. You also taught a couple of classes, a couple of courses in university, right, for nearly a decade, if I'm correct. And I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, how was that teaching and keeping it practice? Is that common in Argentina for experienced lawyers should be teaching in university at the same time as they practice. And I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, all the mentoring and all of that that goes into, you know, basically raising the next generations of lawyers in your country. Well, thank you. There's, there's and thank you for that, that question because no one really asks about the teaching aspects. And I found that teaching was, was a privilege. But I need to say something before I went to the public university in Argentina, you have public schools and you go to public university. If you can, there's also the private option like after, like my life in the UVA University of Buenos Aires, I also went to, to, to private university. And when you go to public university, you know that your law degree is being paid by taxpayers money. And I was a tax lawyer. I, I need to repeat that. And I also as a service provider, we are not only privileged because we have this, this profession that ultimately you are a guardian of your constitution and you also have to give back a little bit of what you got through that institution. And we have that call when we go to the university and we learn from all those professors that perhaps like, it's a completely ignoram and pro bono career. You do it because you love it. No one pays you, you need to pay almost to go to the university and teach. And, and it's, it's part, it's, it's a privilege and, and, and it's something that that also makes you keep yourself sharp because if you are, you are part of the practice. And if you lose the connection with students or what is being talked around the school is, is something that I don't know, you can always find your north as it's like a compass. And teaching also forces you to revisit those core values, the principles to stay current. Because sometimes I don't know, the things that I would teach at at law school were in the back of my mind when I was working, but I did not have the opportunity to explain all the constitutional tax principles to the public officers I was I was working for. They would not care. And it's also something that helps you break down complex ideas into something accessible. It's also a way to make some, some people motivated and to discover other things because it happened to me. As I mentioned, I didn't know what to do when I realized that I was going to turn 22 years old and I was going to have a low degree. And then I looked into the university and I, I really like, or that's something that I used to enjoy was making the, the students connect the dots, thinking outside, outside the box and, and putting them in a way that they could think about the public institutions, no matter which type of law would they, would they, they, they practice And well, I'm going to steal directly from Jorge Luis Borquez, the best author of the Argentinian literature that he used to say that he would learn all the time from his students. He, like, he, he said that he had a sort of impostor syndrome when he would teach because you learn more from your students than than what you can learn from yourself when, when studying. And it also shaped the way I, I communicated and how I related to other professionals and other people in professional settings. Because as a lawyer, you are not always working with lawyers. You work with law clerks, you have the receptionists, you have like all the people that's helping you in every setting you walk. And sometimes teaching helps you to break down those, those concepts to make the, the, the tasks or or or or or making things or, yes, getting things done simply. So that's amazing. That's amazing. And I'm just thinking here, you know, juggling that career that you had pitching and all of that together and, and now having this role that you have within the mining industry, within securities law. So it's really a big tapestry of legal concepts and all the different areas of law that you got the chance to touch. And I'm sure more and more you see that there are very, very intertwined. And if I may ask you then regarding your, your current involvement with mining laws and securities, what are some of the things that you find most rewarding about working in this space? You mentioned quickly that, you know, you make it for your clients so that they can feel that you're a part of the company, that's that you're a part of the business. But I'd love to hear a little more about that. It's, I know it's different. I used to be the, the lawyer that my clients would, would call because I was always on advising. It's like, guys, please don't make decisions. And here my, my role is, is completely different because I need to, I also need to, to say as like I was at a super senior stage and then when I moved to Canada, I, I started as anyone starts, it's like, I started articling like not article, not the LP. I went to the LP and I joined the firm and it's, it's something that goes step by step and I like the environment because I know that the mining companies want to drill is like, what do they want? They want to drill, they want to produce. And to do that, they need to get money and we need to make them like collect that mining that money, sorry, through, through financings. And it's like, OK, there's, there's an efficiency rule behind they, they need to, they need to comply with lots of disclosure and they had, they need to have smooth transactions. And this is, I think that this is the, the biggest learning that I'm having in Canada because I always wanted to work with capital markets. But unfortunately in Argentina, capital markets are really underdeveloped. And like during my last six months in my country, I could actually work, but only from the tax perspective. So here I'm kind of amazed looking had everything and which are the things that I can bring to the table and which are the things that I can I can learn. It's like I, I I'm considering I consider myself a. Learner that's amazing. And, and taking that into consideration, you've, you know, you've gone through the licensing process. You mentioned quickly that you did the LP went, went through your articles, did your bar exam and all of that. And I'd love to hear a little more about this experience here in Canada. I saw in your profile you did instead of a little more about mining law, you said it about ESG. So you've done, you know, quite a while around that, I would say in the sense in this, in this realm as well of legal education initiatives and considering your, your background or your thought in the past. Can you tell me a little more about, you know, your involvement with, with lawyers with licensing candidates? I know you're a mentor to many as well. Well, I think that that was, should start with the fact that when I joined Osgood, I, I, I moved to Canada without really knowing what to do. When I left Argentina, it was, it was like the move was a personal, it was a professional and also an emotional move because there were things that were not working for me in my country and was COVID, as I mentioned. And, and at some point I was looking for a new chapter or a new, a new place to grow, to raise my son and also challenge myself. And when I was there trying to figure out what to do, the first thing that happened to me is that there were some colleagues that reached me out and they said, Hey, I can help you with this. I can help you with that. And it was like before I started connecting with people, they already connected with me and they were willing to help. And that willingness to help is like in the case of university, it's, it's, it's a matter of service. And I, I started doing exactly the same and organically with, with other people that were, were going through the same path, like helping them. I don't know when you settle in Canada, which are the things that you need to ring, which are the things that you need to do. Like all the licensing process itself is quite a complicated process. If you don't know the rules, you need to plan ahead. Everything I, I, I, I can't say that I found myself like lost, but sometimes there are so many things that you need to tie up aside from the fact that you are in a new country that is like, I speak way slower than in Spanish. Sometimes I don't know which language I'm speaking. I don't know if any internationally trained lawyer has the same issue. But sometimes I want to say a word and I don't even remember the word I want to say in any of the two languages I speak. So I, I started doing that more, more naturally, like trying to connect with people based on their, on their needs and as part of a service or an act of service to people that were, were actually needing that. And well, during the licensing process, like I'm also a mom, I was also like doing the dishes, planning meals, taking the kid to sending the, the kid to school, like planning camps and all those things while all this, like all the process was going on. So I started connecting with people that had more or less the same, the same needs. And that was kind of natural. And then what happened is I, I had to, to write the exams and I failed my first exam. I failed barristers was like, and when I was at the at the exam, I realized that oh, I'm failing was like, I knew that I I then when I saw these statistics, it was not so bad, but it's like to me it was something brutal because how am I going to fail an exam? I have, I don't know how many thousand hours of university classes. And this is me admitting that I'm failing. And so I started connecting with my peers at the LP and with other people that would need help. I started getting together with peers and ultimately I also like it was the shot to my ego was like, I'm not going to I, I'm not going to minimize that because and I, I, I felt bad, but still I did not have really much time because I have, I had to write the, the solicitors exam within 13 days. So in 13 days I changed the, I changed the framework. I realized which were the things that I, I was wrong. I was more familiar with the solicitors aspect because I was already working as a corporate lawyer. I used to be a tax lawyer in Argentina. There were many transferable skills, but still I wanted to pass it. And after, after that, when I signed up for the new exam, I joined, I joined Piper Riley Thompson in the Ontario parks at the, the, the Ontario Brixham coach and the bar exam bootcamp. And I, I, I knew how to do it, but I really realized that sometimes I needed to feel vulnerable. That was like, that was the biggest acknowledgement in the boot camps. I was all the time asking questions and trying to help others. So after I passed the exam, Piper called me and she's like, I need to revamp this, this bar bar exam boot camp because I, I wrote the exam like 3 or 4 years ago and it's like you have a different perspective. So I joined her to rethink it a little bit from, from the new perspectives. And I also kept on talking with other colleagues and trying to help because like, I know that that can, the, the Canadian lost student, the one that comes out from the university has only big, like only one big issue, all the debt. They are like they need to, they need to pay the, the school debt and they, they have that Gordon, but they are young and they have support. But I realized that as an internationally trained lawyer, I'm I, I also, I also went through a grievance period. It was like, that's a part of our journey that no one really talks about, like the immigration grievance because you decide to move to another country to get a new challenge to do whatever, but you can't leave your country behind. Whereas the people that live at your country, your former colleagues, they think, no, you left us because you have a better life standard. And it's not the same because you, you came here for something, but it's not the same building that the same ties, the affections, the friendships. And I found myself in that situation situation. And I realized the only way I'm all I'm going to succeed at, at it's not at this profession is that as a human being is connecting with other people that have the same needs. And like, on one hand, I started helping Piper at the Ontario bar exam coach, but I also started looking for help from people that went through the same path that could be, could advise me better. And I also started using the services of the LSO, the MAP, asking for counseling. And actually, I will be joining the, the, the peer support program because I think that it's important that I can give something back because that form part, although it forms part of like our licensee fees, I know that there are others like facing the same issues. And if I can't help anyone navigate them and offer like some type of solace, I, I will be happy as I don't know it's, it goes, it goes beyond the the legal profession. No, that's amazing. I'm glad you touched on on so many interesting points, you know, about the profession, the licensing process, immigration processes. And that's true. Really, I think we don't we don't yet talk enough about all of these different aspects that that make us human right and that make us here living this experience. That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing those thoughts. I actually had the opportunity to have a podcast with Piper in the past, so I'll make sure to put it in the show notes here. So those that are listening and that once you hear a little more about the Ontario bar exam, get the chance to hear that from her too, because I think she brings also lots of interesting advice and interesting insights. Mercedes, to wrap up today's episode here. And I might catch you a little bit off guard here, but I'm I'm sure you'll be able to to help me with this. I'm thinking if you were to give one piece of advice to people who are listening to the podcast today and they're just, you know, beginning their licensing process, what kind of advice would you give then? What would you tell them? I would ask them to ask for help for sure. There's there's like what they find. This is amazing. There's a lot of talent out there and there's a lot of people willing to help. There's something that as lawyers, we love. We love talking about ourselves and, and don't get me wrong, we, we can get help. There are, there are means. I, I wish that I could be even more helpful for one to ones. But get help, know the rules, be nice to yourself because there's one part that no one talks about. It's like I screwed up my sleeping patterns when I moved to Canada. At some point, I was sleeping poorly, I was eating poorly, I was distressed. And sometimes you need to treat yourself well. And that's something that I learned more from Piper. Like it took me awhile to realize that sometimes. Well, I, I don't need to feel everything as a shame if I'm not spending, I don't know, half an hour studying or half an hour doing. I don't know by that time, practice questions. But in the margin, like whatever, whatever it happens in your life is going to affect the way you perform. So you need to be happy. It's like you and and unhappiness is like it's the small thing and you need to give give yourself grace. Amazing. Thank you so much. And I'm sure our listeners, our listeners here will appreciate these advice as well. So thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Everybody who who's listening to this episode as well and we'll see you on the next episode. Check out the show notes where I'll put you know, the bioform Mercedes as well as the link for Pipers episode and we'll see you on the next. Take care everyone.