Practical Problem-Solving in Legal Work with Sandra Shime

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law around the World. Today we have the opportunity to receive Sandra Shine. She's the Director of Dispute Resolution Services here in Ontario. She has an extensive experience in dispute resolution adjudication and management in both the private and public sectors. Thank you so much for joining us today, Sandra. Good afternoon. Thank you for having me on this podcast and I look forward to our conversation today. Amazing. Well, choose start our conversation today. I I'd love to hear a little bit about yourself. You could you could introduce yourself short, short which you are listeners and we can just right after that jump into your conversation. Absolutely. So you've indicated my name and my title, and I do work here for the Ontario province and I work as the Director of Dispute Resolution Services in the Ministry of Labour, Immigration, Training and Skills Development. And in my job, what my team does is we provide mediation assistance to unions and employers to assist with collective bargaining across the province. So in more layman's terms, I would say that we work with parties to prevent work stoppages and labour disruptions across the province in the private and public sector and assist parties to get to their collective agreements. It's every day, it's a different workplace and different parties. And that's what makes it really interesting is we get to share and be art of people's workplaces across the province, whether it be a large workplace like a large private manufacturer or we get to be in a municipality, at a school board, involved in transit, involved in medical facility. And we're really privileged that people share their lives and their workplaces with us every day. But that's also what makes our work very, very interesting is we get to be part of working with parties, unions and employers to come to agreements that define and explain what the terms of their work conditions will be over the course of their collective agreement. That sounds so interesting. And as you know, in our, in our podcast, a lot of the focus is to get out to listen to the story of our guests. So beyond, you know, hearing about what they do these days, we love hearing a little bit about how they get you to where they are. And we'd love to learn a little more about your trajectory in that sense. Sandra, So I know you were involved being Cardozo School of Law, Law Review, and you also interned at the Manhattan DA's office. And I was wondering how did those early experiences have influenced your career, your career goals? So I think, I think it would be actually sort of not quite accurate as a career goals because I think a lot of things happened as I went along by opportunity, interest, passion was being opened, doors being closed. So I think my career goals were perhaps one thing, but it's come, you know, my trajectory has changed overtime based on a lot of factors. Sometimes there's personal factors, wanting to balance and having children and work as a lawyer. Some of it was interest and passion for the work. So I think my goals changed depending on what stage of life and what opportunities. And as I said, what doors open, but also what doors closed. And I've heard that in some of your other guest podcasts as well. And I think that's probably one of the themes of all your podcasts is that sometimes opportunities present in your career goals adjust and change as you go. I am interned at the Manhattan District Attorney's Office when I was in law school and I found a real passion for criminal law, really loved criminal law, really liked working in the prosecution side where you could be a voice for victims of crime and sort of advocate for victims of crime. But what I also saw at the district attorney's office was also a real belief in the integrity of the justice system. So not a determination to win, but a determination to do justice. And sometimes doing justice means you lose. And sometimes I felt that I really valued that. So when I graduated from law school, I actually couldn't go to the Manhattan DA's office because you had to be an American citizen, and I was a Canadian, so I wasn't able to do that. So I went to a large law firm in New York City where I actually learned from some of the best lawyers. So while I didn't love the work that I was doing, I didn't feel passion about. I wasn't really a voice for anyone other than, you know, one large company against another. But what I did take out of that experience is how to be a really good lawyer, how to be really thoughtful, how to really read the law, how to work really hard, understand details, a strong work ethic, and how to be smart about things. And so I took that experience and when I moved to Massachusetts, I applied to become a prosecutor. They didn't have the same rule there that you had to be an American citizen. So I sort of didn't let go of my dream to working criminal law and be a prosecutor and be a voice for victims of crime. I actually continue took that with me and when I was able to have the opportunity to go work as a prosecutor, I did so I went to Boston, MA and worked as a prosecutor there. And again, really felt like the integrity of what people did there, which was not just being the voice for victims of crime. And I did a lot of work with domestic violence victims, but also wanting to really preserve the integrity of the system that the justice system, it's important for all of society that justice works in a fair and equitable way. Meaning sometimes there isn't enough evidence to convict. I may know that this has occurred, but the system is important for all of us to main the integrity to maintain the integrity of the law. And so I really saw that in the people I worked with, and that became sort of a passion for me, but also made that job really important to me as well, that our goals were both to prosecute and advocate, but also to make sure the system maintained its integrity. And I think that integrity in the system is something I've taken with me and all my jobs across the way, which is really believing in the integrity of a system, but also making change where you can to build integrity into a system or preserve integrity or to enhance integrity in a system. So I think we do that every day in my job now in labour, where the integrity of the system, where collective bargaining, employers and unions get to speak and negotiate and discuss and argue and sort of sometimes Duke it out over what is a fair workplace look like, what's equitable in a workplace. And help parties together come to make the best system that they possibly can within the constraints that there may be, whether that's financial, workforce opportunities, location, strength of the parties. So I think that's something that I took from my early days that I tried to preserve and have worked for in all the different parts of my career. Well, that sounds amazing. First of all, something that I, that I love and that has been a theme in the podcast is really hearing what people can do with a law degree. It's really opportunities are limitless. And there's of course a lot of a lot that happens between, you know, having that dream job or having that career you always expected to. But also I just find it fascinating the wide range of things you can do. And it's being amazing to meet so many lawyers that have really made those plans come true. And considering these experience you just mentioned about being an assistant District Attorney in Massachusetts, I'd love to hear a little bit, you know, if you have some stories or or you know, some points about what are some of your most formative moments from that time? I think a few things, one is just the passion with which people around me cared about their work and felt about their work. And really when you care and love your work, it doesn't work for you. You know, when you really have a passion and care about things, you come in every day excited. You're, you have an open mind about things. You want to be there and be present. So, and, and I think it's a privilege to do that both personally, it's a privilege to be in a workplace where you have that, but also for me, it's a privilege too. And part of that was the support and helping my spouse that I could work in the public sector. These career goals are usually in conjunction with what's going on in your personal life too. Who is there to support you? And that can include both people helping you as you raise children or helping you figure out together at different points who is the primary breadwinner, who's the primary caregiver. And so all of those things, as we talked about what are career goals, those things change and adapt as you think about that. So I was able to follow some of the passion I had to be a prosecutor because I had a, a great spouse who we together could financially manage. So I think it it was that allowed me and gave me the privilege to be able to be a voice for victims of crime because when I went to become a prosecutor, I'd barely made a living wage. I could barely and I eventually laughed because I couldn't afford daycare. My day cross were essentially higher than what I was being paid when you combined like my, you know, gas driving pickup and some of the, you know, dry cleaning for your clothes or your suits. It actually I was I was losing money and that's ultimately, sadly why I left and that job along with we moved back up to Canada, which is where I was born and raised and for family reasons. But so I think, you know, there are a lot of factors that go into it, but I have some great moments. I mean, one of the things I always learned is, you know, don't you know, know all your questions, do your homework, you know, never ask that question where there's a surprise answer. And I have trouble with that a little bit because I'm always curious and ask more questions. So I really had to learn how to restrain, do my homework and learn how not to ask that question, that something cross examination, for example. So same thing here. Do your homework, know everything, go into a meeting, be open minded, but go into a meeting or a file and have done, you know, there's no shortcuts to the hard work and preparation. So know the answer to the question before it's asked, but be open minded about the answer. Even in this interview, like how we're talking that it may take you in a different direction. So listen and go in that direction if need be, but as I said, there's no shortcuts for hard work and the preparation and knowing the answers to the question before you ask them. And that's a cross examination role that any or assistant District Attorney will tell you, but something I really learned while I was there. Well, that sounds so interesting. You did mention this transition from being a prosecutor in the US to come and living in practicing in Canada. How was that like in the beginning? Absolutely. And I think this is where it comes in, where especially as a female lawyer, like always trying to balance having children and a family. If you do choose to go and not direction and have children and also balance having a career and staying in your careers. I'm your back to Canada for family reasons. My husband and I moved up here. We had our my daughter at that time who was three. One of the issues I had is we were both litigators. And so I was a prosecutor down in the States. My husband was in litigation and we we were struggling to navigate that together if we were both in court, not having backup if our daughter was sick. So again, your career goals shifting and so my goal shifted that I wanted to continue work, do something interesting, but I could we couldn't sustain too litigators and having a small child. So I started looking around and I came and ended up being adjudicator. I interviewed a number of places and ended up working as adjudicator, the Workplace Safety Insurance Appeals Tribunal, and I had grown up as a child. My father was a labour arbitrator, so I really loved labour. I'd really liked it as a, you know, I sort of grew up with it. It was comfortable place for me. And when I was, you know, 8 or 9, my dad would come to the, you know, Friday night, we had Shabbat dinners where my family is Jewish. We had about dinners and my dad would give us cases to and present to us and we sort of discuss and argue. So he'd say something like, you know, this long term employee was fired because she stole, you know, a $2.00, you know, a $2.00 item from the grocery shelves. What are the interests of the employers in maintaining, you know, a place where people can't steal? But what about an individual who maybe doesn't have job prospects, is in their 50s and, you know, has worked for 25 years at a store? What would you do? So we were always challenged like that, which is maybe why I ended up in law. But then when it came back up to Canada sort of labour, I had this opportunity to go work at this tribunal, work in where the issues were, workplace injuries and return to work issues. And so that was a natural home, but it was also partly based on my personal circumstances of navigating being a mother and A2 parents who were working. And so that became my home for 13 years and I loved that work. And again, same thing, the opportunity to change and impact people's lives and to think about people's lives and hear people's lives and be invited into people's lives. And often in a situation where nobody wanted to be, which is someone, you know, had lost the opportunity in a workplace because of a workplace injury that prevented them from returning to work or how could they return work. So again, sort of marrying labour with passion or thinking about how people function in day-to-day life and how things impact them, whether it be crime or a labour in an injury on a workplace. And how do we as lawyers within this or Judicator ours or people within the system, how do we think about the systems and the workplace and get to where we need to go? Preserving the integrity of the system, but also recognizing the individual. I'm thinking about how the that individuals impacted. So even today in our work today, when we work on collective agreements, we think about day-to-day, we hear about affordability issues, whether people how they can afford to their rent, things we see in the paper. But then we see that in real time, you know how if people need to go to food banks, what they're making minimum wage, whether they're working conditions. So just always thinking both macro, like the integrity of the system, like collective bargaining as a freedom of association charter right between unions and employers, but also the micro level. How is this person day-to-day managing on their wages? What is their workplace like? What are their conditions of work? And so I had the privilege to do that at the tribunal and then here. And so moving from criminal to labour was a huge learning curve from an administrative law. And again, as I said, there's no shortcuts for just doing your work. Head down, working hard, learning the statutes, learning the laws, thinking about the issues, learning the policies, but maintaining sort of that idea of like thinking about the larger integrity of systems, but how does any individual fit within that system and, and how does that work within the law? So I think I've been privilege to do that in criminal, in Labour and so while the fields were completely different, the ideas were the same for me. Well, that's fantastic. I, I find it fascinating how you know, you find those same skills or the same backbone of being a good professional being really the same regardless of which area of the law you end up being at. So I love that you commented on that. And we did start, start this conversation, talk a little bit about talking a little bit about your experience and, and your current role as well. You're now the director of Dispute Resolution Services and you did mention a few of the things that you do through the podcast today. But I'm just wondering what does a day-to-day basis look like for you? So the best part about my job is there is no day-to-day. Every day is different. And that's one thing I love and some people are maybe thrive on having like knowing every day they're doing similar things. But I think people in my job, mediators, labour negotiators thrive on things being thrown at you, being able to think on your feet and everything being different. So I might be one day in a labour negotiation with a union and an employer negotiating the terms of their collective agreement. So negotiating wages, benefits, vacation days. I might another day be dealing with a legal objections, legal issues. Another day, I'll be getting a call from a mediator and talking through strike issues. How do we bring a party, a group back who are out on strike? On Friday, I spoke to someone about a group that's on strike in the province and thinking about and talking through how do we think about getting them back off strike and how do we work the employer and the union to think about what next steps look like? On any given day, I might be talking to someone about how to manage or navigate the politics of the union or how to navigate the politics of an employer in terms of US mediating or trying to get to a deal but addressing sort of political issues. I had one file where the politics were someone would come to me and say, you know, we're trying to work towards this. And another person on the same team would come to me and say, well, you were trying to work towards this, but don't tell the other person. So again, also trying to behind the scenes figure out how do we put these pieces together to get through the same goal, But sometimes people have different interests. So another day I might be also dealing with just as the director of a team working on, we're working on digitizing, working with my Co director on digitizing our department, which is mostly done right. What does that look like? How do you integrate labour law into the digital reality? We'll be talking about, you know, summer internships, dealing with HR, someone who's sick, who goes out sick, How do we manage their workload? So what our pilot projects thinking about what are things we can do connecting or reaching out to stakeholders to figure out to do problem solving. We get an e-mail, there's a big issue like calling and reaching out to that stakeholder. How do we problem solve? So another big thing I I talked to young lawyers about is you have the law and you have the practical. So how do you marry those two, right? And sometimes, you know, people just want to focus on the law and some people want to focus on the practical, but how do you Mary the law and practical? So in terms of efficiency? So example, someone calls and says, well, I know I have to go through this step, this step, this step. And we'll say, OK, you can go through this in this step, but maybe we can find a way to consolidate some of those steps for you as a stakeholder. So we always reach out to our stakeholders for problem solving. People e-mail us about issues or problems and we try to with it. We have sort of a within our group, like a 24 hour policy. So often people say to me, I never get a call from someone in government or I've never spoken to the director. But I think problem solving is a lot of what I do, just in different layers and levels. But that's one of the things I love about my day-to-day job is I'm essentially doing problem solving. But it can be a legal issue, it can be a labour issue, it can be a strike issue, it can be a, a, a term of a collector group agreement. It can be an objection to an appointment of a mediator, objection to We work with the arbitrator community. So I think that's what I really like is that every day is slightly. Different. That sounds fantastic. And you did mention a few examples of the disputes that you help and solve, but I'm wondering if there is, you know, a few specific types that you deal most with. And then also, how do you, you know, use your team to resolve them the most fair and efficient way possible? So I think the best answer to that is so in order to legally strike in Ontario, you have to come through my division. So what we do, an example would be parties would come to us to help them negotiate or mediate. Most collective agreements expire and a collective agreement is essentially a contract about your conditions of work. So it would include your wages, your benefits, your pay, your grievance procedure. And in Ontario, 72% of the public sector is unionized, so we will deal with any large public sector union. So that would include teachers, nurses, it'll include all your municipalities or unionized. So any city would be, you know, city of Toronto, city of Oakville, city of Richmond Hill, City of Hamilton, our united. And so we work to resolve the terms of the collective agreement. And sometimes that can involve, as you said, strikes that parties cannot come to an agreement about the terms of the agreement and the union will go out on strike and the import, the employer will lock out the union nuts. Part of our processes and part of what we do day-to-day. So we might be working with our job large group. It could be a large municipality and all the workers for that municipality, or it could be a car manufacturer or small company. And we had one file where the mediator. One of the big issues was that the union was a small group of people, but they wanted a coffee maker. That was they wanted it in their collective agreement, but we can also deal with a municipality that might have 20,000 employees and the the issues of like what are their work conditions. So every day it's resolving disputes, but essentially at the end of the day, the dispute is how do you get or persuade two parties that they have a similar interest or to minimize or avoid a work disruption, whether it be a lockout by the employer of the employees or a strike by the union members. So a lot of what we do on a day-to-day basis is that dispute resolution which we talked about. How do you resolve disputes which can be anything as small as like a coffee maker to very real issues that you will have seen in strikes across the province or threats of strikes across the province that you would see in the newspaper on a daily or weekly basis. So you know, last year Metro, the grocery store went on strike. So working with those parties to think about how do we bring people back off strike and then also to prevent strikes or work disruptions on a day-to-day basis that may be in the news or may not be in the news. And that can be with bus drivers or it can be with teachers or as I said, it can be with a small middle car company or manufacturing company. Or I worked on a file that was they made airplane parts for airplanes and they provided airplane parts, for example, to the Government of Canada. So you know that file may not have made it in the news, but we worked with them to minimize or prevent and work disruption in. That sounds incredible. And if I may ask a final question to finish our episode today. Sandra, you've been involved in so many different fronts, but also in training new generations of adjudicators, speaking at the Canadian Bar Association and many other organizations. If I may ask you, what kind of advice would you give to those entering the legal profession today? So I once I saw a leader speak about this and I've sort of adopted some of her thoughts and then adopted it to my own. And so I'm going to sort of give you my four or five because I heard you ask this question and other podcasts. And so I thought a little bit about it and you sent me this question and I don't have. So I'll give you what I I think or what my best lessons are, but I think everyone has to come to find their own lessons for themselves. But I'll give you some of my best lessons, which are one to surround yourself with smart people. Always surround yourself with smart people and to protect them, to look out for them, surround yourself with smart people and then go to bat for them, advocate for them and listen to them and have them challenge you. My second is to collaborate. Not just collaborate, like can you look at this or review this, but really collaborate from the ground, throw it an idea and have them really push back on what does that look like? What does that mean? How do we manifest this? So collaborate in a really genuine a deep way with different people and different ideas. Third is I really say, I mean, I know I've heard people on some of your podcasts and a lot of people say do things outside your comfort zone people use or outside your strength. I, one of the things I actually learned and I heard this woman speak about is I actually used to say that to people. And now I actually tell young, young people or young lawyers, I say actually find what you're good at and keep doing it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't go outside your comfort zone once in a while, but actually find what you're really good at and keep doing it and get better at. Because I think ultimately I was good at writing, reading, talking, relationship building, and that's where I landed. So I think if you figure out what you're good at and keep doing it and getting better at, that's actually where you will end up. So I now encourage people to spend more time finding what they're good at and keep doing it and building those strengths, then pushing themselves outside their comfort zone. That's not to say you shouldn't, but focus on where you're really good at and keep doing those things. And then, you know, seek, and this goes back a bit to collaboration, but seek diverse perspective, ideas and personalities. And I really do that. I really, really seek out people who are really walk in all different kinds of life and I listen to them, whether it be someone who works in, I work a lot with people in construction, which is something very far from my background, but I really seek out their opinions and thoughts on things. And then I'll go talk to a faculty member at a university if we're doing university. And then I surround myself with different people have different ideas and different perspectives, and I really seek out their their thoughts. So really seek them out, but really don't just seek them out for sort of a superficial, but to really understand and hear and challenge yourself because then you'll be a better leader if you have diverse opinions, diverse ideas. And I'm sure you've heard that on the podcast from lots of people, but really do it and really doing it and surrounding yourself by people who really are different from you is something that can be a challenge for many people. It's really easy to, let's say, go to a law firm and be surrounded by lawyers. And I really challenge myself to be surrounded by, you know, younger people, older people, people are in law, people are in business, people are in construction, people who are and blue collar, white collar, pink collar, however you want to call it. Because that really makes me better at what I do. And the last thing I would say is really have fun and enjoy. You know, we laugh a lot in this job. It's really hard. This job, we do really hard things where in people's workplaces doing very, very hard things everyday, hearing people can't afford to eat, they may lose their paychecks if they go on strike and employer can't afford our losing business, can't afford to maintain their business out of certain level. But we spend a lot of time with each other sort of finding humor at things in life that happen and laughing and on my team and joking about each other and our strengths, our weaknesses. And I think when you love and care about your work, you can find that. But that also allows you to be stronger, that you take your work very seriously, but you don't always take yourself so seriously. That's sort of a long way of saying enjoy and laugh at yourself a little bit and laugh at sometimes the circumstances you find yourself in. But also enjoy, really enjoy what you do and have fun. I love that. I really appreciate you taking the time to sharing those insights. I feel like they can definitely inspire a lot of our listeners and, and especially like what you said about focusing on what you're good at. I, I, I really resonate with that sometimes. I, I've heard about schools that sometimes at school, if you don't do good at math, your parents will put you in extra math classes so you can level up. But then sometimes you're so good at the arts or literature and you don't get any extra work on that. So it, it might be just the key to focus on what you're good at. And I just love that you brought that up. Thank. You, yeah. And I see you, Clado. I see you're really good at reaching out to people in networking and relationship building and thinking about people and how people function. And I would say, do you keep doing that? Like find in the law where you're good at that, you know, you'll figure out the law piece, you'll do that hard work. But you have a skill that I really see and I saw and partly why I reached out to you. So I would say keep doing that, whatever that is, whether it's project building or connecting to people or relationship building, because that is your, and I heard someone say superpower on one of your other podcasts, but that is one of your superpowers. So again, going back to what I said is keep doing what you're good at and build that. And you already have that in in so many in such a large amount and you will be successful if you continue to do that and identify that for yourself. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, and thank you for taking the time to be in the podcast today. Thank you, our listeners, for listening to this episode, and we'll see you on the next one. Thank you.