Global Legal Careers Made Possible with Cardozo’s New Online LL.M. Program

Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law around the world. And today I have the opportunity to host Dean Vau Miten Berry. She's the Associate Dean for Graduate studies, graduate and international programs at Cardozo School of Law. She leads the LLM and JSD programs, work closely with faculty and senior leadership, and builds international partnerships that expands opportunities for students. She holds an LLM in Corporate Law from Cardozo and also an MLB from the University of Tirana in Albania. Where does Rose? She also directed the Heyman Centre on Corporate Governance, where she organized major events and LED research on corporate and financial regulation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Denval. Thank you, Claudio. It's my pleasure. I really appreciate you taking the time to being in the podcast today, and this podcast is brought to you by Cardozo Law, so we are very thankful for you being here today. But I wanted to ask you a little more about what inspired Cardozo Law School launch an online LLM in General Studies and why now? Right. It's a great question, Claudio, because everything we do at Cardozo, as you know, Cardozo School of Law is a top law school in the middle of Manhattan in a very busy city of New York. And the launch of this program goes to the core of what we do, staying ahead of market trends and really responding to the latest developments in the legal market. And as you know, in the last 10 to 20 years, we have seen great advancements of technologies and such advancements have caused great globalization of businesses and therefore interconnecting economies and making the legal profession more globalized. With evolvement of technology, there is evolving landscape in legal regulations and interconnectedness in economies creates more complex laws and laws and cases that span across borders. So highlighting how globalization has shaped the legal profession creates a demand in the market for talent that has those skills, lawyers and students that have a global understanding of the issues as well as how to solve those legal issues. And Cardozo has ran successfully, successfully for 20 years at the General Studies in person in our campus. LM and I was part of the program. We welcome students from 70 countries. We have welcomed students from all those countries around the globe. And to see their success, to see them transforming their lives through this program and becoming lawyers in New York and practicing either in New York or other jurisdictions in the United States or abroad has given us the idea that maybe with all this growth, interconnectedness and globalization of services, there is a demand for lawyers who cannot come to New York and they can access a bar in the United States. They can access understanding of US from the comfort of their homes without leaving their jobs, giving them flexibility, affordability, and excellent legal education where they are. So it's a combination of things, right? Market trends, market demand for legal skills that transcend across cultures and borders, as well as our experience and our depth in training already for decades, international lawyers to do to become dually qualified. And so those two meet together in this platform online to bring the best education we can in a flexible way. That's it. Fantastic. That's awesome. I really like Mutual, learned the motivation behind it, and I think it makes me even interested myself in the program. So who is this program designed for and what kind of career goes can it help international lawyers achieve? Well, it's designed for people like you, people who have studied law in perhaps two countries, one country, people who want to practice in areas of law that are transcending cultures and countries, corporate law, global dispute resolution, for example, intellectual property law and litigation. There is so much international litigation happening. With this in mind, if you are a lawyer or a law student who wants to serve with international clients, who wants to see global issues and solve global issues in law, this is the program designed for you. And whether you have 20 years of experience or 0 experience, you can definitely get this dual qualification and access the benefits of the programs. And what are some of the benefits? The number one I would say is eligibility for a US bar examination, meaning you're going through an LLM degree, whether in person or online, to meet the bar requirements of a certain jurisdiction in the United States. In our live program, as I said, for decades we have helped lawyers meet the New York bar requirements. But since New York has restrictions on online learning, we looked at other bars like the Washington DC or California bar to see how our students or our international lawyers and access those jurisdictions. And this program is designed specifically for those bars, Washington, DC as well as California, because they allow education online for lawyers. So just to complete these credits, 26 credits for the DC bar or 24 for California, allow students to take that bar and become dually qualified in their home jurisdiction as well as in these jurisdictions. So that's number one benefit. You can become an attorney at law in DC or in California through this program #2 is global career mobility. If you have the opportunity to be in America and you are already an immigrant, for example, like I was, and you are working and you can't go to a live in person, you know, rigorous demanding live program, you cannot quit your job or you cannot travel to New York, but you do have the, the, the eligibility to work in America. This could help you get that attorney job, whether it's in DC on California and not be limited to either paralegal or law clerk jobs. You can do more than just those, you know, entry level. A lot of international lawyers come to America and because they're familiar with legal skills, they do enter the legal careers with entry level jobs, whether it's paralegal or clerks. And to have the opportunity to have the bar and work as an attorney at law in DC or California, this is a great thing. So they can grow in their profession. But also for those who are not able to work in America, they can grow their careers back home, right? Career advancement in home jurisdiction because you're now having an nuanced understanding not only of your local laws and local jurisdiction, but also of U.S. law and international law. Lawyers often strengthen their expertise in handling cases or clients with US connections, making them more competitive in the legal market back home. For example, I meet often with employers in France, law firm partners or companies who are hiring lawyers, and they always say that French lawyer with an 11° and a bar from the US will always be taking an advantage in our hiring because we are servicing US clients, we are servicing international clients, or we often work with US lawyers in matters that are happening in France because the interconnecting economy that we talked about. So to have the opportunity to be in Paris, but let's say triple your salary, because you're working with more sophisticated law firms and more sophisticated clients, that helps you make that career advancement. Your home jurisdiction #3 is the networking. When you enter an American law school like Cardozo, which is so rich in terms of presence in the world, diverse countries. We, as I said, have had students from 70 countries. But also to be at the heart of New York City, you have a network of people, legal minds, colleagues, alumni, professors that are extremely important for your growth, right? Whether you are looking for helping your client in another jurisdiction, in another country, and you're calling your classmate to help you with that matter in a trusted, smart way, that alone helps you in the future help you, helps you better serve that client. Or it could be that you're looking to expand your practice in another country, in another jurisdiction, and Cardozo community will be there for you to help you grow. So it's extremely important to understand the value of an LM, not just as learning and books and meeting eligibility requirements and succeeding in the bar, but it's that career advancement that comes with being present, whether it's online or in person with the community that is very giving a very rich, diverse, engaged and caring community. And that was how I experienced Cardozo as a student. I'm here to speak not just as a Dean, but also as an international student myself. When you come to New York, whether you are online or in person, and we have done a lot of testing of online learning because of COVID, you are part of a family and family of lawyers, family of legal thinkers and people who will challenge you professionally. But that presence, whether it's in person or online, sometimes can come with anxiety. And to know that you are learning in a community that cares for you takes away that anxiety and frees you to grow, frees you to challenge yourself and to grow in heights that you never thought possible. So I found my degree to be transformative and I wish to see all international lawyers and students who wish to to get into this program to see it as a transformative opportunity. So for bar eligibility, networking and seeing that career advancement as three main benefits of this program. That's amazing, I can see that. Those definitely make the the the LM from Cardozo difference than other programs that are open to foreign trained lawyers. And as you said, this big highlights the ability to qualify for both the Washington, DC and the California bar exams. And that's definitely an asset. One thing that that I may ask here, many listeners and and really friends and and people I know, they really wonder about quality when it comes to online education. So I was wondering, what does Cardozo do to make sure that online students get a true law school experience? That's a great question and that's my worry too, right at the Dean. I want to make sure that students online are engaged and they are getting everything that we offer. Number one is the quality of the faculty that will teach in this program. They are superb. And I don't say that just because we do have superb faculty. I say it because they truly are very engaged in everything we do in terms of innovation. This is not a faculty that says, OK, whatever you decide as the Dean or whatever the committee decides will just make it implement. No, they want to question it. They want to probe it. How do we make it better? Can I teach in it? Like these are top, top faculty who are writers and thinkers and shaping the law like brilliant scholars, but also who have a passion for teaching. And they will find the time to to want to teach in an online program, not just to the JD students like it happens in certain schools or just the live LM. They just want to teach the bring the quality that we're known for to their online learning. So TAP faculty who have a passion for teaching that will be present in this program #2 is really making students feel comfortable from the start. I engage in conversations with them from the start, from the moment they're applying because as a Dean, I don't just want to delegate and, and I know that my team is amazing. I just want to get to know their mindset. Why are they doing this program? How can we help them from the start by understanding their goals? Because if you don't it, when you come as an international lawyer and you only have this one year or two years if you want to do it part time to meet such a high bar, like becoming an attorney in a sophisticated jurisdiction, whether it's California, New York, or DC, to, to have such a high bar, a very busy year, there is so much demanded of you. The yellow lamb has to start much earlier than when it begins, when the, the, the classes begin, right? It starts with writing down your goals, getting us to know your goals, getting us to help you shape the schedule that will get you to those goals, right? Ambition is great. But there is like in any marathon, there is a lot of work that has to happen between start and finish. And if you don't pace yourself, if you don't know the rules of the game, and if you just think that you, you can do it all while while working, it's fine. But you need that kind of supervision and that kind of engagement from us because we have done it for 15 years, 20 years. And to all those years of experience and all those stories of success from all these countries, 70 countries. Let those be your lessons. So that whether you are a mother working or a father working with kids and busy schedules and you really don't want to postpone your dreams. We know you can do it, but you gotta kind of listen to our advice and take it step by step and trust the that we have built a very caring program. So it's faculty brilliance, a caring environment from, from the top, from us, the Deans, the, the, the team, student advising team and then technology, right? You cannot forget how about advancements have happened the last five years alone, in the last year alone, even including AI. We are a school that are keeping an eye on every advancement of technology, how to put it to use, how to make the learning more effective, more fun with more cases, more examples, and to create those discussion forums and communities online so that for those people who have time and they can join, they have a secondary place to learn, not just the professor, but also their peers and others. We, we include alumni engagements with alumnis and talks about from time management to success after law school. Because at the end of the day, you want to see that end result and get a better job or you know, whatever you want to achieve with degrees. So there is a little bit of everything and it's up to you to to engage. And I was a very busy student. Like I wanted A's, I wanted to do well. So I went to many events, but I was very quiet. I wasn't as engaged in the first semester especially. And that's OK. You're going to find your own pace. This is your own, you make your own LM in this program. But understanding that you're not going to fall through the cracks because we will make sure that you are engaged is key. And I'm hopeful that with this kind of strategy and philosophy of care, they will complete the program, they will feel more engaged, and they can take initiatives just like in life programs, right? During COVID, we did a lot of online conferences and discussions with alumni all over the world, with professionals. And that exists. The online sphere continues, Zoom calls continue. Even though live campuses have come back and work has come back, a lot of things still happen online. So this is an opportunity for students who have initiatives to organize events on their own and with us with alumni to kind of see that professional growth in addition to their learning. So it's a little bit of both. It's us caring for you, but also the students taking that active role in getting the most out of it. And of course, the technology allows them access to library services, library tools for lawyers. Access to library and resources is like tools and knives for surgeons, right? All the medical tools. So we are doing our best to give online students as much access to what we offer to live students as possible. And if they take full advantage of these tools, they will have a great experience and thrive. That's fantastic. So going into the the needy greedies of the program here, I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, what kinds of courses the students can expect to take and how this curriculum prepares them for practice. And if we can go a little bit on our most classes, you know, mandatory and all students will take the same program or how much can you personalize it and make it customized to your own experience and are there really to prepare that for practice, be it in the US or internationally? It's another great question because we want to be effective and to save time to these students, right? So the majority of the classes are going to be bar required courses, bar related courses because the main purpose is to be successful with the bar, whether it's the sea or California. So yes, they are fundamental courses. They are aware they create a well-rounded lawyer right for all the major subjects in explored in law schools in the United States. But they are guided by three main requirements from the bars. And that's in the live program too, although the live program has more offerings because obviously it's, it's easier to run something in person then than it is to be online. But the three main kind of pools or requirements that the we have to follow with the bar is at #1 for whether it's Washington, DC or California bar, they require students to finish in an ABA approved school. So Anella Lamb that meets 32 that requirement, right? And Cardozo is an LM is a, is a school that is may be approved. And the LM program falls into that category of meeting the eligibility requirements. And under that umbrella of being in an ABA approved school, the L program has to include credit hours of study in courses covering subjects tested on the DC or California bar. What are these courses, right? You want to explore things that are already tested. That means it's contracts, it's going to be towards property, criminal law, constitutional law, Civil Procedure. So as we go, students can take a workload that works for them, right? Flexibility is the priority here. So you might take two courses in the spring, for example, Civil Procedure and constitutional law and then two courses in the summer, 2 courses in the fall depending on your schedule. Or you can meet all the requirements within 12 months. We are building this as we go and based on the fee, the feedback of of the students, we will continue to shape the curriculum. But for the start is definitely all the courses that are tested in the bars and are creating a well-rounded understanding of the US laws. In addition, we have a class introduction to U.S. law to give students that entry kind of point into the federal and state system of the US, the legal system, understanding the role of statutory law in case law, federal, state. So not many programs include an introduction to U.S. law when it comes to online learning. And then the other thing that we have highlighted as an elective is legal writing course. That doesn't happen often in online programs, but we think it's very important for international lawyers to hone their writing skills when writing to different audiences in the United States. So we're also going to make legal writing as one of the options in the program. And yes, some students might be if those students that choose a 12 month, you know, period of study, they might have all the classmates that program taking all the classes together. And then those that are part time might see a rotation and meet new students in the following year. But the idea is to focus on the substance and content required by the bars. And then finally, the third thing is that they have to complete the program. Partial completion is not enough for the bar. So you know, you are in an ABA approved school with a rich and rigorous curriculum that helps you meet and exceed in bar Washington, DC and, and California with tap professionals from all over the world that we select. And then you have to complete, right? Those three have to go in together in order for you to, to to do the bar exam in DC and California. So that's been guiding us mostly. We may add more electives as we go, but knowing that most people are paying the the tuition dollars to be successful with the bar, those are the courses that we have prioritized. Fantastic, and I really appreciated what you said about, you know, making sure that students feel like they don't fall through the cracks. That will definitely be one of the the very key points here. So so support really is often key to succeed in any program and in graduate programs when you're an international students even more so. I was wondering if you could tell us a little more maybe about, you know, what kind of advising mentorship, faculty access the students who have throughout these specific online program. Well, the good news is that the online program offers the same rigorous academic program that we offer on campus, meaning the faculty is very driven to make sure the students are successful. That's how we have become one of the top schools in New York, right? Because the faculty cares and I as a Dean care. How does that what? Right? We see the activity of students. Technology allows us to see everything the students are doing online, sometimes more and better than in live programs, right? Because you go in a classroom in law school in America and there could be 100 student, you are engaging in the Socratic method. But sometimes the student might skip a reading or might skip an assignment and you won't know as as, as a professor in a live program online. We can see if you skipped, if you didn't answer questions, if you're not doing your lessons, all your activity is monitored. And that's a great tool for faculty. Who cares, right? They can flag a student and say, hey, wow, I see this student didn't meet, didn't meet the assignment this week. Can you give him a call? Should I give him a call? What's going on? Perhaps there is a one-on-one that they need with me, time with me, time with a peer, time with an advisor. So, so that faculty monitoring is key and it comes from a place of care, right? Because we want this program to be successful. Number 2 is it is true that when you study law in America, I say this to my students every year, there are some expectations that you don't see in colleges or back home when you are studying for an LLB. American law schools expect students to be very independent learners. They're supposed to know what are the issues of today being discussed in class, What is the syllabus ahead of class? What are the readings before class so that I can be prepared for that discussion assignment, quiz, whatever it is, right? And if there is a topic that you are asked to study, the materials given in classroom may not be enough. So if you still have questions, you are expected to go to the professor and ask those questions. You're expected to do deeper research, whether it's in LEXIS, Westlaw, whatever tools, AI tools that they give you, you're expected to dive deeper because you have to understand the topic before you move forward. So that independence learning will be part of our orientation to students online with me so that they, they do see the difference between learning back home in an LLB program where a lot of our professors, how can I say you were given what to study and not much room to question what you study or to question deeper. You basically had to do as you're told, not in the United States. You have to do what you're told in the syllabus. But there is more of like that independent pursuit of that knowledge. And we're seeking individuals like that for this program. And we're lucky that in the live program, we've always had excellent students to do very well. And so that will translate online so that they can be engaged, they, they can enjoy the, the lessons, do those squeezes, do those case studies and whatever they're given online and probably a little more. So it's up to them how much involvement they want with the materials and the program. It's, it's both ways. The personalized academic support, I would add, is a very niche existence of Cardozo. It's a very unique aspect of Cardozo is why I chose this school in the 1st place. I felt like a, from admissions to student advising to professors, everybody cared about what I wanted to learn and how I wanted to get there. And maybe it has to do with the fact that we are very well positioned international program, but we don't have hundreds of students. Each fall we have about 60 to 70 students and each January we have about 30 to 40 students. So they're kind of smaller compared to other big programs. That smaller approach has given us the opportunity to get to know individually the students and to give them an individual attention and advice. So as I said, from admissions to graduation and beyond, the students meet with me. They talk to me about their goals. If their goals are shifting, we discuss them. Again, nothing is set in stone. We want to see flexibility so that they can succeed and pursue what they're passionate about. So that kind of faculty care, individual expectation of being driven to study, to want to learn and to be engaged with the materials and that personal attention from me and my team really should be a great launch for these students. And there could be times when they wanna take a break. They could take a semester break if they want to. We don't encourage it because there is there is a rhythm when it comes to law school. You want to stay in that rhythm. But they don't risk failure with these tools because it's designed to see them successful. And I truly feel like every student I've talked to so far for this program, they are amazing. Their goals are amazing. I push them to pursue them. I see that their challenges are there. There's challenges with every graduate program, especially for working professionals. But I can see them succeed and I can see them do the bar to become the attorneys they want to become. And I will be so proud when they succeed. So it's on me. I don't want them to fail. That's amazing. So I, I love that. I love how everybody set up to succeed in this program. And then if I may ask a little bit more about, you know, the online classroom environment and all of that. I'm curious too. Those students get to interact, collaborate. How do they stay connected? So how do the students end up, you know, getting to know their LM connections? I know that, you know, classmates are usually, you know, a great source of lifelong friendship. I'm sure you definitely connected with those spheres of yours during your LM. It is very much my experience as well. And how does that happen in this environment? About making friends for life, right in the Netherland program is so precious to select people from all over the world who wish to become lawyers in sophisticated jurisdictions in the United States. Just saying that out loud, like an American going abroad to study law in a foreign language and become an attorney in one year is it would be a huge achievement. And so for all these people coming to New York or coming online to this program to meet the power requirements, it is a huge achievement. So those driven people and those driven lawyers want to connect. They're already kind of go getters, right? So it's impossible to avoid connecting in a classroom learning. The lessons will be asynchronous, but there will be group, team, team groups, right, for each class so students can see who's in that class, what's that person's e-mail and contact professor might do group studies depending on the topics. You're gonna have some theoretical aspects of learning as well as practical aspects and exercises and case studies. But also me being the leader of the program, I want to see students connecting already. We're doing that online with admissions questions, so when they meet each other and they learn from each other's goals already in Zoom, just like all the live students who are coming in August, so far they haven't met each other but online. So most of the friendships have been created before they come to New York. So that same methodology will be implemented online so that they know each other, they know their e-mail, their phone, there is a quick Zoom that they might want with me during office hours. So today with technology is extremely easy to stay connected wherever they are in the world, right? And I am confident that because of these tools, technological tools and that driven kind of classroom environment, because they are driven people, I think it will be a great way to stay connected. I've had students who say I wish to organize the talk on this development that happened in my country, Laws changed on privacy in my country. I'd like to hold the talk with classmates or with alumni in this area. And often we do those in Zoom. Possible to come to New York. So there will be a full array of opportunities for them to be engaged, whether it's with the class program project, whether it's with one-on-one, with the professor, with me, with each other. The sky is the limit because the technology allows us to do that and sometimes time difference in the challenge. But it hasn't stopped us from doing business in all these 70 countries. So it shouldn't stop, stop us online. That's fantastic. Another one of the big points that I thought it was very interesting and I think we should talk about here is affordability for this program. Really big factor. So I notice that it's about $1400 per credit. And I know sometimes finances do play a big role program. So yeah. If you don't mind me asking about that, how is Cardozo able to offer such a strong value even for international students? It comes from a place of care. A lot of our students that come from around the world really cannot afford the 100,000 plus that you need to come to a live LM, whether it's in New York or anywhere else. Helen programs are very expensive and only becoming more expensive. I postpone my studies by 8 years because I wasn't financially ready and I I've seen through all my travels around the world that people it's almost like catching up, treading water. Like you tried to save money to start an LLC, but it just goes up and up and it's a huge problem for most of international lawyers. So out of 21 million lawyers that exist around the world, only 0.03% are able to come to a Netherland program in the United States. So it's a very small number of people. Because of affordability and given the support of our alumni, the great scholarships we've been able to raise, we're able to launch this program with that philosophy that made our programs very successful life. The philosophy of care, passion for teaching, passion for success, the need and wants to grow our reputation globally. So it's an investment on the part of Cardozo right to want to become more globally recognized, more present. And given that this program was shaped by the demand in the market, lawyers who said we can't come to New York, it's impossible to leave the kids or the the job. So we're hopeful that by discounting or lowering the tuition investing in this program, we can attract the best and the brightest around the world who cannot come to New York. And then it will grow and it will be, you know, fruitful for Cardozo as well As for the future of online students. So it's a little bit of, it takes both of us to make it successful, our investment, but also the applicants who are who are getting into this program to trust that this will work for them. Even though it's discounted, it's still a lot of money for most countries right now. For example, in order to do the DC bar, the LM will require 26 credits. That's about $38,500 for the whole program. Yes, it's much cheaper than the 75,000 or so that we charge for the Life Tuition program. So it is hugely discounted, but it's still a lot of money for many people. We have secured an additional 10% discount for strong students and those who apply early. I was just told today that the committee will extend the early application deadline to September 1st so that more people can get a discount of 10%. Used to be July 15th. We extended it a little bit because some candidates are still working on their paperwork to submit their applications. And yeah, we wanna make it as affordable as possible, understanding that it's a huge investment on our part, but with the goal that in the next 5 years it will transform people, hundreds of people's lives. International lawyers who want to access US learning and US Baric. Them that's fantastic. I love that it's really mission driven and something that I that I was also thinking you you did mention that you have alumni across over 70 countries and I was preparing for this podcast. I I did a little research and also learned that you have over 16,000 yes, as well. So that's a very strong alumni network. Yeah. I'd love to ask a little bit as well if there is any plans. You know, you, you did mention that there is sometimes Courier talks that those alumni communities are plugged in, but how does the online MLM also help? The students should tap into that network of alumni for career opportunities. The same approach that we use for live students, right? LLM students are very busy. As I said, they are asked to do a lot within a year or two, meet all the bar requirements, study hard, learn to think like US lawyers, go deeper into their writing skills and research skills in a new jurisdiction like the US, right? It's a lot of demand. They're going to be busy, but by presenting them with opportunities to learn from the stories of previous students, even if it's once a month, a large stock in Zoom with a German lawyer or a French lawyer or a Chinese lawyer, he gets them outside of the books and the intensity of legal studies in the day-to-day life, it makes them think like, oh, I can be that lawyer or I can do, I can solve such issues, or that student was in my shoes two years or three years ago and now look where they are. It gives you that inspiration. And often this happens online, even for the live students. Additionally, when you graduate, every year we hold the global alumni event and we change the different cities. Last year it was in London. This past May, the previous year was in Milan. The year before that it was in Paris. Next year is gonna be in Bologna. So every year we meet with international lawyers and online students will be part of those invitations where they're not excluded from the community. Whether you finished the LM 1020 years ago or you are just graduating from the online program, you will be part of those networks and community engagement. Because as I said, it hasn't stopped us being across the world, hasn't stopped us from building that community, and it shouldn't stop the LM online students from being part of it. And it does start with you. Like, how much do you want to be engaged? If you are seeking a mentor, an alumni mentor from your country, we will help you with that. Whether you are five students on campus or online, there is no difference. We want to see you be inspired and connected to previous students and alumni. Also, business associations and organizations. Every activity that we do around the world with various organizations and employers, all nine students will be invited to those. I want them to see the online experience not as less than the live experience, but actually as more because they should have more time. They don't have to commute to New York or to Cardozo. They should have more time to do more with the cellular right, in terms of networking, especially if they're practicing lawyers already and they know exactly what they want out of this LM. They should be articulating that from the start. And we will help them connect to those people and, and leaders and alumni and whatever they're looking for, because that's what the community of a law school is, is not just to learn, but it's also to connect and give and take just as a community does. So I'm more excited to see how this class, the new class starts in January, will engage with these tools and we'll continue to learn from what they need so that we make this experience better. Accessing networks and being important members of that network is hugely important to me. So we'll be continuing to evolve on that. Amazing. Well, now let's talk about, you know, people who are interested in joining the program, you know, about this extended deadline. So whoever is interested can definitely, you know, start putting things together. Sometimes an LM is the fruit of much organization and, and, and all of that. But also I feel like sometimes and in different circumstances, it also could be, you know, something that you look now, you see that it's possible within, you know, your financial circumstances or your career ambitions right now. And maybe you want to do that right now after hearing all the awesome benefits. So if I'm considering applying Denval, what advice would you give to help? You know, students put together a strong and compelling application that will help them to get into the program. It's another great question because often as sporting lawyers and students, you feel intimidated by the application process. In American law schools, we have heard a lot of stories of how competitive it is and how hard it is to get in and how much paperwork is required. And personal statement. What is personal statement? Nobody asked us a personal statement back home, right? So it could be, it can sound intimidating, but it's just like every other written project. The moment you start doing it, it will come. So start by checking the requirements on the website, looking at the actual application form. It's simply as easy as that. Fill out an application form. You will be part of our system, which means you will be part of our invitations to the Zoom. All we do Zoom calls on admission. If you're stuck with admission questions, you'll have that support, right? Then the good news is that you can apply directly to Cardozo, which is $0.00. You don't have to pay any fees, or you can apply via LSC, the Law School Assembly Council, and if you have a file there, you can directly send it to Cardozo. We don't charge fees. As I mentioned, LSC has their own fees, but if you're already part of that system, we allow you that flexibility to apply there. And we think that lawyers that share their stories and their goals honestly, without making it fancy, without making it complicated. I'm a lawyer who emigrated in America and I wanted to become an attorney in New York. Here is my story. I left my country in a war time and I had to learn a new language and learn how to survive in a new country and I did it and now I'm ready for law school. That's what I wrote right Here is my letter of recommendation. You could send 2 letters of recommendations if you are a working professional, maybe one letter from a supervising attorney that has senior work or one letter from a professor. Sometimes letters of recommendations come from clients. It doesn't matter. So you need a strong personal statement with honest truth as to what you want out of this program and who you are as you may the letter of recommendation and your law school transcript. It's not complicated, right? If you have additional paperwork that you want to send, for example, if you have written something, an article or a blog, or if you are active in your profession, but maybe you hold Cle credits in your country or the equivalent of that, just tell us. We want strong students and strong students are eligible for the Dean Merit Scholarship even beyond the September 1st or 15th deadline. I think it's September 15th. I will clarify it, But basically we're trying to encourage students to apply even in their business schedules to get either the early application discount, the 10% or the Dean Merit Scholarship. And by putting a strong application, you can benefit. A strong application is also important because there might be opportunities that professors or Deans want to you to access. And let's say they see the resume of the student and they say, oh, client was looking or an alarm was looking for a similar resume. Should I introduce them or should they apply to in, in our system? And when you encourage them to apply, apply. Having that strong file in admissions can help because we can look at the notes, we can look at those recommendations. It's like you already have this marketing tool with our system. Why not have it strong? Some people don't even write their name correctly and then they are about to graduate and they say, oh, I didn't write it correctly. I'd like to to change it. And why is it that you don't write your name correctly? You're a lawyer, right? So take your time, write it well, do a thorough application, write your law school name correctly. Don't take up. The deviations because all of those records will go to the bar. All of those records will be as part of your marketing as a lawyer. And don't feel intimidated. If you have questions, call the admissions team. If you're stuck with a document, call us. If you're looking for English proficiency exams, usually we prefer TOEFL and IELTS, but students during COVID have taken other exams and will allow it, right? So if you are driven and you are really seeking to get into the program, there should be no barriers. You should definitely stay in touch with us and submit a strong application. Lastly, and should wrap up today's episode, what kind of impact do you hope that this online LLM will have on legal education and on the careers of this students enjoying it? Well, I want them to really think about the benefits of this investment. When I came into the States, I thought just working in a law firm and I had, I was very lucky to have a great job in a law firm in New Jersey and then another law firm. And there, there are some great opportunities to work in America or abroad in what you have achieved so far with the education you have so far. But nothing transformed me like this program. The way I think, the way I speak, the way I see the world, even though I'm not practicing law per se, just to be an inspiration to others and to think deeper, more critically, solve problems better to just such a versatile kind of number of skills that you get out of it. And then to do the bar exam and to say that I passed the bar exam with my first try and now I'm an attorney in New York or in DC or wherever you are. I think it elevates you in a different level whether you are back home or in the United States. And I enjoyed that wasn't it was a rigorous program. I worked very hard. It is not easy. I'm not saying this is easy, but it's very rewarding. So each day brings you this transformation that is beautiful. And so I want to see those students not delay this investment. I know we always think of costs when studying law, especially in in America, but it's more like value. What is the value that I want to get from this program? And let's work together to make it happen because I promise you this investment will be worth it. And to see their their careers, sometimes their careers are even better than what they expected. That's my favorite thing. I see some of the students five years out, 10 years out of LM and they say, I never thought I could be this at Google. I never thought I could be the head of IP at Microsoft. I never I love that. So I can't wait to see where the students will head by completing our program. They will surprise me. I know only for the best. That's amazing, Denval. Thank you again for taking the time to answering all of these questions and letting our listeners know a little more about Cardozo's new online program. We appreciate you all for taking the time to listen and also invite you to take the time to read through the show notes here. Below I'll put all the information about the program here so you can get to know even more and also know how to contact the admissions team, so thank you. All so much power to receiving your application, including yours perhaps Claudio. That's right. That's right. Well, thank you all so much, and we'll see you on the next episode. See you soon.