Building Your Legal Brand with Sunny Kim

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. So many of the guests on this podcast have talked about how important it is to have strong writing skills as a lawyer. It's true, written communication is essential in this profession, but it can also be one of the trickiest skills to master. If you find your writing feels a bit clunky, or you're getting a lot of edits on your work, or perhaps you're breaking into an English speaking jurisdiction for the first time, Grammatica International can help. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator and educator behind Grammatica, and we help lawyers and law students to write more sharply, speak more clearly, and advance their careers with group training and one-on-one skills coaching designed just for legal professionals. I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need a bit of guidance to stand out in a competitive legal market. And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five countries during my 17 years in law and education. Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills generally, to refresh your CV, or draft an application for a law program, Grammatica can help. Visit gramatica.co to learn more. Today I have the opportunity to interview Sunny Kim. She has an incredible story and career and I'm so excited for you all to get to know her a little better and to start today's episode. First of all, wanted to thank you for being willing to be here today, Sunny, and also wanted to ask you to start us off here by introducing yourself and telling you, our listeners a little bit about your background. It's great to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. Yeah. So again, my name is Sunny Kim. Sunny. Like the weather. I have been in law for about 6 years. I practiced in the beginning as a tax lawyer after graduating from Columbia Law School, and I worked at Davis Polk in the tax department. And then I transitioned to Gunderson Murder, which does a lot of startup and fund formation work. And then most recently, I was in house at a private equity firm out here in California, where I am now. And I just had a really great boss. I had really interesting work. And at the same time, I was like, OK, I'm so lucky with my current job in so many respects, but something is missing. Like I want to feel super excited to wake up every morning and I wasn't getting that. I was like, Oh my gosh, something's like something's wrong with me. I need to change something. And so I to a really what it seems like a crazy thing and I put in my notice and I was really honest with my boss who was like amazing and very understanding. I said I just want to take a career break to figure out what I want to do and just take some time for myself. And so I quit my job and then I have always loved writing. It was one of the things that I really enjoyed about practicing in tax law. There's a lot of new regulations coming out all the time. So writing a memo for clients, for example, or writing tax opinions, writing even for tax controversy projects. Just writing always was my sort of, yeah, my strong suit, but also something I enjoyed the most. So I was like, OK, I want to maybe write. It's with something that I gravitated towards. So I looked up like how to start writing online or something. And then I found a lot of articles like, hey, don't write on blogs because no one's going to find it right on a social platform. So I actually started writing on Twitter and I had zero Twitter audience and no one was reading my stuff. And at the time I at least had like 1000 people I knew on LinkedIn. And so I wrote my first post about putting my job and gaining a sense of control over my time and also a heightened sense of self worth because it was the first time I did something purely for myself. I feel like most of my life I kind of live to get external validation and you know, this is the first time where I really did something truly for myself. And so I wrote about that, my first post ever and it got like 60,000 people to read it, which I was like really shocked by. And so many people messaged me saying that the post resonated with them. And so I started just, I kept writing since then. And once I started writing, I guess because it is a social platform, even though I had a really small audience, a lot of people were reading my stuff and they were saying, you know, how can I write like you or how can I write LinkedIn posts? And so I actually started helping them for free. A lot of them were lawyers and one of my first clients who I love working with, I was like, let's just do this experiment. I want to see what this can do for you. He just had left a really big law firm to start his own practice. And he was like, OK, he called me and he said, this is crazy. But like I used to have like 1000 people read my post. It's like in the couple first hours since you helped me with this post, I have like 5000 people reading it. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. And then so we kept going and then and then you would call me again, me like, Hey, I keep on calling me and wanting to work with me as a client because like they're seeing my posts. I was like, he's like, at this point, I think it makes sense to start paying you. And so that's where it started. I was, it built in, evolved into a business. And I have been doing that since I help lawyers brand build their brand and presence on LinkedIn to attract whatever opportunity it is. Sometimes it's clients, sometimes it's to land a valuable job opportunity. And it's been really fantastic. And I've just met so many lawyers who have really benefited from putting themselves out there. They've gotten over that fear and done it, and they have been really surprised by the opportunities that came their way. So that is what I do now. That was a long introduction, but yeah, that's where I'm at now. That's amazing. And I love that you did a complete one because now we can have a clear idea of who you are, what you've done and what you do these days. So it couldn't get any better than that. But I'm, I'm really curious, right? You mentioned a few different things. You mentioned that you've you've helped lawyers and you saw them having those results. And then I'm really curious about it as you continue helping other people, what are some of the challenges that you've seen that you've heard people saying or that even your face yourself in this sense of, you know, trying to stand out in competitive environments that you've been in quite a bit, you know, big law school or law firm setting. For sure. That's a really great question. Have had this challenge and I've heard it from other lawyers as well. It's like all of us are really great at what we do. And I think we have a lot of pride in our level of work and expertise that we continue to build upon. And I think the traditional sort of saying that we have heard as lawyers is put your head down to do really good work and your bosses, their clients, they will, they will see that and come back. And I believe that is true to some extent. But I what I did read in actually a recent study, there's a book called Activator Advantage. I think it's a Harvard Law Review or business review press book. And this book interviewed like over 3000 being a mature, like 40% were lawyers. And that model of like put your head down and do good work that doesn't work as well that the efficiency of that is decreasing because more and more clients have more options when it comes to choosing lawyers. There's a lot of boutique practices and clients are becoming less loyal to sticking to one lawyer that they work with for a long period of time. And I found this to be true myself. And for other connections that I have for in-house counsel, like they usually they have had a long term relationship with one firm, but you know, we don't feel bound to just work with one firm anymore. There's a lot of firms that specialize in a particular type of work. And I think we are becoming more aware of that, especially because there's a lot of information out there now. And what works is that people who were proactive about making it known to the world, this is my expertise, this is how I hope, and this is how I can also use my expertise to help you specifically solve your particular challenge or issue that you're going through. And The thing is, like, even if you are really great at your job, because there are so many other lawyers in your practice area, it is hard to stand out if you just put your head down and do good work and no one knows about it. You know, clients, as I said, they have a lot of options. And I think a lot of opportunities actually go to lawyers who are very proactive about providing value to clients before they're asked about sharing on platforms like LinkedIn, what it is that they do, how they add value, and just continuing to educate their audience even before, like the clients even knew that this was a particular legal issue or something. Right? So yeah, I think the challenge is definitely getting yourself known and trusted because just like any business, you know, lawyer lawyers especially, it's a people business and people want to work with lawyers that they like and trust. And in order to do that, you have to kind of put yourself out there. And LinkedIn is a really great platform for that because we like to go to networking events and there's value in that. It's just really hard to connect with people one-on-one through networking events. Time is finite and the number of people that you can meet at these events is limited. But when you put a really valuable piece of like LinkedIn post out there, educates your audience, kind of tells them a little bit about you and shows that you not only educate them, but also you're relatable, you can reach like thousands of people at once, even with a small network. And so that's like scale that you can't really replicate through coffee chats or networking events. And so I have found that for those lawyers who are facing that challenge of really building a business or kind of becoming a person where people approach them with job opportunities, LinkedIn has been a really great way for them to put themselves out there in a way that's really natural and also just reached a lot of people at once. That's amazing. That's so incredible. And I love that, that the way you mentioned it, it's, it's so incredible that people who are still wanting to stay at their job and once you stand out at the company that they currently work at, they can send out through that. And then on the other side of the spectrum, if you have your own firm and you're a solo lawyer and you're trying to, you know, bring more attention to your practice, you can also do that. So I love how you can really have, regardless of your goal, it seems like working with your brands and, and making sure that you put yourself out there have some really interesting benefits. And as you said, you've been working with people who've seen that. So that's, that's just so interesting to see. I appreciate you sharing those. Yeah, no problem. Amazing. I've seen here. I went through your profile and I saw a little bit of what you do. I saw that you work with a few different services these days and in products have your own course, you have coaching that you do one-on-one or in groups. You also provide workshops at law firms and, and in other settings. And all serious, you know, also how, how can you tailor those two people's different needs? As I just mentioned, a few people might be, you know, I'm a lawyer. I love the firm where I'm at and I just want to grow here. But also there is other people who want to find work elsewhere or who want to, you know, go into their own practice. So how do you manage all of that those different goals and using branding as a tool for achieving? Them. Yeah, definitely. So totally. You know, I totally agree with you. People have different needs and that's why I've built out an offer later letter that addresses what people may be looking for at different price points and also different level of involvement, right? So for the people who just want a proven system that they can execute themselves to build their presence on LinkedIn and start attracting opportunities, they could take the course that's like only $97.00, but it gives you the foundation and the precise steps and examples and templates. So you could build your brand yourself starting today. And then the people who want more tailored coaching because they have a specific audience that they want to target they or they feel lost on how they want to position themselves. They've done like litigation, but they've also done a little bit of corporate work like, you know, in that circumstance may be confused like how do I position myself? And so if you want that more tailored help, but it's more condensed and limited to an hourly basis than Ioffer that power hour that you can really get my tailored feedback. And then for people who are just really busy, they don't want to think about it. They want a person like me who is an expert at brand strategy to just handle it all from how to position themselves on LinkedIn, but also to help them write content in their voice with just an hour of their time for an interview to gather those stories to make good content. I just handle it from A-Z. It's like a white glove service. So some people might like that. And then for law firms, they really want to empower their attorneys to develop business and build their own brand. Because I think what's changing is that a lot of companies realize that people don't resonate with company logos anymore. They resonate with people. That's why you see even in financial institutions like Blackstone, for example, they're already really well known. But you see John Gray, who's the CEO, he's always recording videos about him running in different locations that he travels to. You see Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan, but he already had a really strong brand. But I really see him amping up his LinkedIn presence and posting like videos of him in a really casual outfit, just sharing like an earnings report because they all realize that personal branding is important. That is what is going to set them apart. And really not only amplify their brand, but also bring up their organizations brand. And so, yeah, law firms, I think are also following suit on that. They realize that clients want to connect with the actual individual lawyer because if you remove the corporate branding from all of these law firms, they pretty much like sound the same across all the brochures. And so your lawyers are the ones who really set your firm apart because people want to work with the lawyers that they trust and like. And so, yeah, those are the different offers that I have. And it's tailored depending on, you know, how much of A light touch or heavy touch you want with building your presence. Fantastic. Well, that's for the the podcast here. A lot of my following right now and people who are interested in listening, our early career professionals are law schools students. And I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, your thoughts on, you know, I'm an early career lawyer. I'm just starting to build my professional brand. I'm still figuring out what I want to do. So I don't want to kind of close myself to one area. What are some simple steps that you can take to build that professional brand and and still be, you know, I'm not an expert in any area yet. I'm just starting my career. I'm just finishing up law school, but I still want to put myself out there. What can professionals in in this kind of scenario do? That's a fantastic question, and I feel like you're actually an expert on this because you're doing it yourself. So I totally hear that someone who is just maybe in law school or early in their legal career, they don't know yet what practice area may be that they want to commit the entire course of their legal journey for. So at this stage, it may be a benefit to them to learn what are the different practice areas out there. First kind of narrow down what are some of the areas that you are interested in and start maybe interviewing lawyers who practice in those areas like you are doing. DM them, see what you learn about their practice. You know, one of the things they like, what are the things that are challenging for them? And then just use that not only for yourself to absorb it, but share that with your audience. Start reporting back like you're doing. You know, I had a conversation with so and so like this is what I learned. You can build a brand that way where you are the person who is consistently reporting back for other audience members who are also maybe early on in their careers saying these are the different options out there. And what I learned, I think that's a really great way. Another thing is, you know, you don't have to start by posting. It may feel overwhelming in the beginning. You can start with baby stuff. So first thing is kind of just make sure you have a pretty polished profile. You have a photo on there. You have a banner, you have a headline that shows. It could even be like, you know, law student exploring corporate transactions or something, like something that shows you have some interest. If you have one. It could just say like law student at so and so university. But yeah, have a profile where you are still, you know, you have a photo and people know that you're a real person because a lot of law students actually don't even have a photo or a headline. And especially in an age where we're very suspicious about fake accounts, not having those 26, it's kind of like, you know, these, these are all thought foundational things. And so I definitely recommend those basic things and then start reaching out to people that you want to network with to kind of get a sense of what it is that you may be interested in the future. And then people actually really love connecting with people, especially even if you are very experienced, they love hearing from junior lawyers or law students who have taken a genuine interest and what we're doing. And so when you send a connection request, I would recommend that you personalize that request. You can add a note saying, hi, I'm a student or I'm a, I'm a junior lawyer and I'm trying to explore my options on what I want to do with my legal career, your practice area and XYZ. I've always found it really interesting for ABC reasons. I would love to learn more if you'd love to be open to connecting. And then once they accept your connection request, follow up and say, Hey, like, would you be up for 15 minutes? Just talk and ask for me to ask some questions about your practice area. And then just like naturally start the relationship from there. And so having a newsletter, having a podcast, that could be one way for you to start that process more consistently and naturally because people are definitely open for it. But if you already have a platform or, or like a newsletter that's simple to start, that gives you a little bit more, I guess, legitimacy and people wanting to come on, right? They're like, oh, wow, you have a podcast or you have a newsletter? Yeah, I'd love to be featured. It's like a natural opener freeze. That's one thing that I would recommend you do and you are really the prime example for doing that because you've been doing that for a while. But I think that's a really, really great way to start. I love that, you know, it's sometimes I find that there's a lot of general principles, but then when it comes to actually giving you an actionable idea, it becomes a little harder, right? Or it's just all styles of people. Some people want to definitely be very low key in their presence online. And I know that also some companies kind of prefer that you convey yourself that way. But I find it interesting to see that there's something that can be done for any kind of profile and personality. And I'm also thinking about people who are maybe unsure how to present themselves online. So I love that that basics, you know, you said have a photo, have you know, where you're at and basically have a profile at all so we can know you're a real person. That really helps a lot. But I was wondering if there is any kind of like strategy or habit that you would recommend to somebody who's wanting to put in the time to try and be, you know, a little bit putting themselves out there, but also unsure of of how to go about it. So beyond, you know, the, the, the having a profile out there, you know, what would you say commenting on other people might be a good way to start? What are some things that come to mind? Yeah, I actually have a system on this because I think a lot of overwhelm comes from not knowing what to do and not having a system for it. And so the system that I recommend is dedicating about 90 minutes per week. Even if you're busy, you can make time for 90 minutes a week to grow your network if you're serious about it. And so it's broken down into A1510 LinkedIn system. Spend one hour drafting a post. So it could be an educational post. Just think about what are some of the questions that you've been asked or what are, was it legal development that recently came out that you could summarize for your audience? Relatable post, something that's sharing a little bit about you, Maybe something that's like, oh, these are, you know, I, I went through, I've done like a lot of interviews. These are the top things that I've learned in my interview process. And this is for like maybe junior lawyers top tips I have from my own experience, you know, and I want to share them with my network. That's one some just like stories from things that happen, just like day-to-day. Maybe it's like a mentor or a colleague who really helped you out and you want to give them a shout out, promotional post, a win from the week. You know, you don't want to share your client name or anything, you want to keep it confidential. But maybe you want an award, maybe you publish an article and you can share that. So just do one and then dedicate one hour to it. And then next thing is 5 connection or sorry, 5 personalized DM's or comments. And so it could be just going through your feed and if someone had a major milestone that they hit, send them a genuine congratulatory e-mail or message on LinkedIn. Comment on someone's post, but don't just say great insight or great post. Like add something a little bit more personable and humanizing that really shows that you read what they wrote and are adding a valuable and or even just like a very personal message. So yeah, you could either do it in the form of comments or DMS, but do 5 and then 10. The last one is send 10 connection requests. So we talked about personalizing the connection request, but basically I would say one hour for the post, 20 minutes to send 5 personalized DMS or comments, and then 10 minutes for sending 10 connection requests that are also personalized. So that basically wraps them to 90 minutes per week that you can spend doing it. And it's just really easy to remember 15101 post 5 connection or five comments or DMS and then 10 connection. Requests amazing. I find that a lot of times when you have a specific system in place and can be methodical about it, it becomes a lot easier to actually stick to it right and and make it into a habit. So thank you so much for sharing that very, very actionable going going forward. I also wanted to ask you if you could share with our listeners if somebody is interested in learning more about your work and about you, where should they look for information? You can find me on LinkedIn. You can search my name Sunny Kim and my company name is Resonance Guide. You should be able to find me if you just look up Sunny Kim and Resonance. Guide fantastic. Any final tips or encouragement for lawyers who want to grow their presence online and also attract opportunities? Yeah, my tip is, you know, I totally understand that it is scary. We are not taught in law school and very taught to limit a degree and even in law firms about how to build brand. And I get that as intimidating. But once you start taking the small steps that we talked about, maybe it's the first comment you write, maybe it's the first connection request you sent, that first step is going to make the next, second, third step so much easier. All you need to do is just get started. And also, if you want, if you even, you know, want to amp up your profile and you feel like that needs a little bit of work, I actually have free profile optimization video on my LinkedIn page that you can go to and check out. And if you subscribe to it, I also just share tips about things you can implement very easily through LinkedIn to attract whatever opportunities that you want. So I would start there and just, yeah, take baby steps. It's going to all that consistent action is going to add momentum and help you help you just really build visibility in a way that you didn't expect. So that's what I would. Say amazing. Well, once again, thank you so much for taking the time to Share your story and to be here in the podcast. And thank you all for tuning in today. Thank you.