Geopolitics, Mediation, and the Legal Frontier: A View from Pakistan with Hasan Mandviwalla

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Studying Law around the World. Today I'm receiving once again my friend Hassan Manuala, who is a partner at Minwalla in Safari in Pakistan and an officer of the International Bar Association. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for coming, Hassan. Thank you so much, Claudio, and thanks for having me back. It's always a pleasure to talk to you on a different topic each. Time her son. Can you, can you just do a quick intro of yourself to our listeners who are listening to you for the first time in this episode? Lawyer practicing in Pakistan. We have offices in all principal cities of Pakistan, Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad and we have a unique presence in Dubai, UAE as well. Prior to this I spent 10 years in the UK where I got all my legal education and worked at an investment bank as well as a law firm. So you know, got in tune with what's happening financially in the world through experience in the UK and now I'm very connected to the International Bar Association. I sit on 2 committees of the International Bar Association, the Young Lawyers Committee and the Anti Money Laundering Committee. And I think it's very important to continue being a student of international law. And I think that's, you know, that's the focus of our discussion today, international law and how it affects Pakistan and, and you know, how we're looking at it, you know, especially in these interesting times these days. Absolutely and and thanks for making the time to come here because we've all the the recent developments, I thought it would be very nice to you to hear a little more from a lawyer in the country about this very, very interesting subject. Now we want, you know, in a way, zoom out and take a look in the country of Pakistan. And for someone outside the country, how would you describe the legal landscape there? Today, so we have a democratic setup, we have separation of powers, we have a constitution, a written constitution in Pakistan in which the executive, the parliament and the judiciary is very well delineated. Of course, as you see with several countries, there are power shifts with different times. And, and I think the interesting part about today is that there is a unanimous will in Pakistan for diplomatic relations to remain, you know, with the one track focus. And I think that's fast forwarding to April 13th, 2026 when Islamabad, our capital, hosted a peace talks between the United States and Iran. It's not an overnight situation that has happened. Begin to historically consider how Pakistan has played its role, its geopolitical place in the world. It's actually very interesting to see how the events of today, you know, are are really it's it's because history has kind of made Pakistan come into this situation in which they can actually be a potential price broker in the region. So how? Does geopolitics shape the the legal work in the country and especially when dealing with cross-border matters? So I think one of the most important things for lawyers is, is, is, is, is economic activity brings more legal work. So I and you know, if we go, let's say, all the way back into the past and India split in 1947. At that time, the world order was, you know, you had Iran under the Shah of Iran. So the alignment with the United States, uh, was, was essentially the same as Pakistan threat in the region, if you may, as far as Iran was concerned, because there was a, you know, there was a, there, there was a sort of Western alignment that was there. And arguably at that time there was that there were not power circles of the Soviet Russia and, and Iran Persia, because it was more of a skew towards the United States. Come 1979 and come, come the Iranian revolution, revolution. It was an entirely different world order that took place. The events that led up to 1979 were, you know, there was, there was a very strong Soviet Union there. There was a scenario in which there, you know, there was the, the, the invasion of the Soviet into Afghanistan, but then you had that Pakistan having to kind of balance the act between the United States and Iran because Pakistan is diplomatically connected to both factions, right? So when you have multiple issues going on with, with, with the region in between that it's really, it's really not Pakistan's war. It's kind of a shift in the tectonics of, of the global dynamics that changes the economics, right? Because what happens then is that Pakistan has to manage a trade with its neighbor being Iran. There is a significant amount of trade that takes place on the border. Pakistan has to manage insurgency on its border because Afghanistan has its own problems. And at the end of the day, Pakistan got support from the United States during that time. And then Pakistan has to manage a very intricate relationship with China because Pakistan has been friends with China, you know, since since, since, since a very long time. I think in, in, you know, in 1971, I think Pakistan really demonstrated how it could play a very important diplomatic role because Henry Kissinger, you know, came to Pakistan in, in 1971 and, you know, sort of used that opportunity to do an overnight in China and have discussions in when the US and China hadn't spoken for several years. So, so, you know, the, the politics aside, just just to contextualize all these elements, they automatically translate into some kind of economic activity. So at the end of the day, like when, when, when, when there's a country that is, that is more or less aligned with the United States. And, and, and that's, that's how we've been and that's how we continue to be, but also balancing these neighbors who we have problems and a certain level of trade with, right? I think that's what kind of allows deal market to, to get better to flourish. And, and if the security situation remains sort of above board and intact, we see that as lawyers because we'll see the IFC and the ADB's coming with more investment. We'll see our neighbors putting in more investment. And I think the, the, the major indicator is, is, is, is when, you know, when more dollars come into the country, that's when we've seen Pakistan thrive to through successive governments and stands in Pakistan. Would you say that in a general terms a lawyers in Pakistan need to think about international relations then when advising clients, especially if they are know international clients or clients who do a lot of cross-border work? Or is that show more of a niche? Space, I think it's definitely bored. I mean, if you want to have a practice that is international facing and of course, everybody does because that's, you know, that's where the earning essentially gets unlocked from. I, I don't think it's ignorable because what do, what do foreign investors want? They want consistency, right? They want consistency in policy, in government or surprisingly, there are many entities and many groups that have have an appetite for security situations that happen from time to time. They happen all over the world, right? It's not just Pakistan in which, you know, you, you hear of some untoward situation taking place. This, this happens all the time. As long as the policy remains consistent, I think that's that, that's where a foreign investor will, will, will, will continue remaining in Pakistan. So back to your point about being an international lawyer, if you are kind of familiar with the workings of the Central Bank of the Securities and Exchange Commission of the evolving legal and regulatory landscape of Pakistan went through agree listing with FTF. If you are able to advise on these issues and these issues are all based on political events that take place, right? I mean, currently there, there is an international war that has come into a ceasefire element because Pakistan has played a role, right? So at the end of the day, to not have this knowledge and to not have the background of what conventions are in play, what kind of points have been discussed? It, it, it kind of puts you at a disadvantage because you're not speaking the language then of the foreign investor. Like the foreign investor is going to ask these pretty headline questions that you can, you can see in the FD or you can see. But if you have that local knowledge to back it up with, then I think you, you're, you're, you're at least engaging in. So as, as international lawyers, it is our duty in it. It is our responsibility to give this very niche knowledge to our foreign investors so that they can continue to stay and not get kind of sidetracked and digressed by by events that don't necessarily concern their investment for the economics, you know. Have you seen some transactions, negotiations or or legal strategies that shifted because of political or the regional? Dynamics So I think or for the first time in history, Pakistan has come into this voluntarily. They have it's been almost like a roadshow, like think about a transactional Rd. show that's been taking place. Our power circles have been going to all the right places, reengaging their diplomatic connections, which were perhaps a little less stronger in the previous government and and and have brought themselves to a point in which, yes, this will unlock economic activity. What has happened, and I'll tell you from a very personal legal perspective is yes, the IFC's, the ADB's International Finance corporation, Asian Development Bank, the multilaterals have come back into Pakistan with more projects. And this is you know, this is pre war. So this is a lead up to these peace talks, but this is because the road show has been actively taking place. Really, it's, you know, obviously the, the, the actual events of April 13th, 2026 in Islamabad are, are, are one aspect of it. But I think the government has been working consistently to get here. And yes, absolutely, at least in my, my, my international practice, I have seen, you know, an array of transactions come into Pakistan, which no law firm would be working on, let's say 1012 years ago, because the appetite of these multilaterals had just kind of depleted a little bit. So yes, you are seeing the transactions of this nature. You know, we we've done telecom deals, we've done, you know, a lot of international deals that have international facing elements in this roadshow lead up to the peace talks as. As you said, you know there has been a lot of attention around the Islamabad talks or peace talks, right? Can you walk us through a little bit of what happened to build up what actually happened and and maybe even what comes next as far as we can tell right now? Look, I think, you know, one maybe advantageous role Pakistan had was that in in 1990, Pakistan was also sanctioned because of nuclear, nuclear proliferation issues and all of that. And I think Iran, you know, under the under the previous regime, when, when, when, when the Shah of Iran was in power, the the non proliferation regime for so, so, so the United States has, you know, a basic, well, not so basic, but, but are asking for no nuclear program for Iran. And what the Iranians are are kind of coming back with is that they want to come into the world again after 30 years of being sanctioned. And this is I think how Pakistan was perhaps able to play a role because Pakistan was also sanctioned and because of, let's say, the events of, you know, the War on Terror and Pakistan's alignment again with the United States, they were able to get unsanctioned, right? So I think one of the main areas of, of debate here is that we as Iran are willing to, you know, do XYZ. We want to get back into the world of finance and commerce with the rest of the world. But at the end of the day, we want to maintain our nuclear program. And our nuclear program is very, very above board because it has, you know, we've signed off on, on various treaties, right? United States says no, nothing doing. You know, we want no nukes and we don't want all you. You give up all the enrichment that's taking place. What does that look like in practice for lawyers who are working on sensitive or or high stake matters right now in the country? Are there situations where lawyers themselves might face some additional pressure because of clients or the issues they're taking on? What does that look like in the in the day-to-day? What have you been hearing? Look. At mediation is, is an ongoing process, right? And sitting between 2 high stake governments on the brink of a tectonic shift in power for 21 hours, that's not giving mediation. It's, it's full chance as well, right? Like, I mean, they're obviously have to be follow-ups. There has to be back and forth. There's so many elements, right? Like, I mean, even think about, you know, one of Iran's demands is, is, is, is have a new UN resolution, you know, and make it legally binding in order to recognize Iran in, in, you know, in terms of these lifting of sanctions right now, that's that that you're involving the United Nations altogether. That's the whole entire body, right? So for mediation to take place and for that particular aspect to be acted upon, right, you need the UN to sit together, you need all the countries to agree. So it's not something that is going to happen just by virtue of two governments sitting together and talking. Obviously, you know, the US vice president has to go back and take it back to the White House. There's a whole advisory committee, I'm assuming everybody of importance was not in Islamabad, because there's there's a whole side piece that needs to be discussed. It's interesting, you know, what's going to happen because there are several factors that are dependent. So mediation cannot be a one day thing, right? And I think that's the expectation of the international community is that, well, everybody was gonna come to Pakistan. They built this whole, you know, the war is gonna end. I think just the fact that there's a two week ceasefire. And yes, you're, you know, you're seeing all these posts on, on, on truth and you're seeing, you know, annihilation of civilization and all these things. But I do think there is, you know, common sense has to prevail behind this because, you know, nobody wants a nuclear war and it just doesn't serve the interests of, of, of any country. You know, I think Pakistan is a, is, is unique because, you know, we are a nuclear power. So we have again, the ability to have this conversation with, with, with two, two superpowers in this world. But as far as mediation is concerned, I think look at the elements involved. I mean, just two things. We've discussed the UN resolution and and and and and nuclear enrichment. These are not things that can be resolved in 21 hours. Absolutely not for someone. Who's outside of Pakistan today who wants to understand the process even more, but who also might be seeing an economic opportunity in all of these arrangements or even work with that legal market? What should they get right early, you know, And looking back at your own path, is there anything that you would do differently if you were starting? Today, you know, it's, it, it, it's, it's a very interesting diet, right? Because, um, I think anybody sitting outside Pakistan would, would definitely want to consider what the, the geopolitical situation is, right? Like, I mean, Pakistan's most economically thriving time, believe it or not, was, was, was during the War on Terror. And, and why was that? Because foreign investment flew in because of alignment with the United States, that there was so much legal work that came in because, yes, the, the, the, the US needed Pakistan as a frontline state then to, to support, you know, it's, it's invasion of Afghanistan and as, as, as a consequence. So there is there, there are heavy economics then then come into play. So in terms of deal flow, in terms of it, it, it does, it does, it does serve Pakistan to play this diplomatically important role. Because now especially I think you will see foreign investors looking into Pakistan, maybe those that exited will find better economics to come back in terms of, in terms of stability, our stock market is always performing. I mean, there are tips every now and again, but it's always performing well. And I think after, you know, the lead up to the peace talks was good, there's a little bit of a decline now. But I think that, that you know, that it will just come back because it's, it's, it's, it's strong. So it's a, it's, it's an interesting landscape with a lot of opportunity. And I think partnering yourself up with, with locals who are in business, who are law professionals, who are accountants, who are, who are even having a chat with representatives of the government or would, would, would, would serve your interest. I think for for for people who are kind of navigating a career in international law, what I would like to see is maybe some foreign firms having genuine affiliations with, with with Pakistani law firms. We don't have that yet. We all law firms work with international law firms. But I think, you know, this could pave the way to having sort of an affiliation. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for for coming in the show and sharing with us a little more of the the details of what's going on and what it looks like to be practicing in Pakistan these days. Really appreciate you making the time and thank you all for listening into today's episode. Thank you so much, Claudia. It's always good to be on your show. And it's it's it's always fun having a conversation with you. And, you know, I appreciate you allowing me to be very candid. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you so much.